Effectiveness of Kicking vs. Pushing

[Mtg Ruler]

You couldnt add the section under the bumper because that piece would be an extension of your frame, and then the bumpers would have to go on the ends of that. And its been my experience that FRC likes their bumpers the way its in the manual without any modifications/concave sections

anyway, its probably a bit inefficient to try to take the balls over the bumps with you, at least take them through the tunnels

i havent thought much about a kicking mechanism all that much, but my main philosophy in this is that most of the problems have already been solved, so its just a matter of thinking about where the solution could be found. In this case, i bet soccer players could tell you the best ways to kick balls different areas

[kjolana1124]

I think it's really going to come down to the physics of it all. If you can get a really accurate kicker that can kick from all three zones, that's great. But at the same time, the farther away you are the harder it will be to get accurate. Also, the video did say that if you kick really hard up close it won't go on. So if a team has a really strong kicker and goes for the "forward" position, it may not be as effective as something that's more like a pusher.

I feel this game more than ever will force teams to have to (either intentionally or not), build robots geared for a specific zone. A strong kicker could be good, so long as teams don't over or undershoot.

[Fe_Will]

Originally Posted by ssa3512

Nurnburger, I don't you understood what I was saying. I was talking about two areas. There is the area between the outside of the bumper and the outside of the frame perimeter (~3.5 inches) and an area inside the frame perimeter (up to 3 inches) for a total of ~6.5 inches of penetration of the ball beneath the bumper.

Just to clarify, your concern is that having the ball approximately 6.5" within the bumper perimeter when initiating the "kick" could cause the ball to contact some part of the robot chassis and/or bumper before it has exited the bumper perimeter depending on the angle it is kicked?

It seems to me that this is a serious issue for a team that is trying to achieve long distance shots by means of kicking the ball into the air rather than along the carpet.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Fe_Will

Just to clarify, your concern is that having the ball approximately 6.5" within the bumper perimeter when initiating the "kick" could cause the ball to contact some part of the robot chassis and/or bumper before it has exited the bumper perimeter depending on the angle it is kicked?

It seems to me that this is a serious issue for a team that is trying to achieve long distance shots by means of kicking the ball into the air rather than along the carpet.

My thoughts exactly.
With intial thought, the physics wont allow the ball to catch air over the bump if your bumper is above and in the way of an angled kick.
Perhaps another method of rolling the ball via the carpet over the hump is a possibility.

[Donut]

Having to push balls to score them could be very frustrating, since the balls will need to be pushed up a 6" ramp without rolling off AND your drivers will be unable to see the ball for at least a few feet on approach due to the player station walls. Having to shoot towards yourself to score is going to feel alot different than recent FIRST games.

[karatekid]

Originally Posted by Donut

Having to push balls to score them could be very frustrating, since the balls will need to be pushed up a 6" ramp without rolling off AND your drivers will be unable to see the ball for at least a few feet on approach due to the player station walls. Having to shoot towards yourself to score is going to feel alot different than recent FIRST games.

The drivers won't necessarily be blind-if you have the camera mounted on the robot, you could see from the robot's view (it looks like the camera transmits back to the station this year). However, that said, I think kicking will be more effective, especially in accuracy.

[=Martin=Taylor=]

Originally Posted by waialua359

My thoughts exactly.
With intial thought, the physics wont allow the ball to catch air over the bump if your bumper is above and in the way of an angled kick.
Perhaps another method of rolling the ball via the carpet over the hump is a possibility.

You're forgetting that you can interact with balls for 2 seconds outside the bumper zone.

If you have a kicker, it can leap out of the frame and propel the ball up past the bumpers.

And yes. This does work. We've tried it.

[robself705]

No you can interact with balls for two seconds outside the FRAME PERIMETER and WITHIN THE BUMPER ZONE for two seconds. You can't go outside the bumper perimeter EVER to interact with the balls

[Taylor]

The "concave area" would have to be part of the bumper itself; the rulebook is pretty clear on how to make the bumpers, and there's not a lot of room for change to make a concave area.

[vivek16]

Yes, the frame perimeter is the plane behind the plywood backing of the bumpers. With the bumpers needing to be in a 10" to 16" range above the ground, you don't really have the bumpers touching the balls.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by =Martin=Taylor=

You're forgetting that you can interact with balls for 2 seconds outside the bumper zone.

If you have a kicker, it can leap out of the frame and propel the ball up past the bumpers.

And yes. This does work. We've tried it.

So you're doing this with your kicker NOT passing the bumper perimeter?

[KGood]

Keep in mind the danger of the "legal" holding, which is the ball must remain in contact with the floor. If you attempt to go over a bump while holding the ball, it is very likely at one point the ball will leave contact with the floor and you will be penalized.

[kjolana1124]

Yeah, I think it would be impossible to be able to legally posses a ball while going over a bump. It doesn't really seem worth it. If you're going for a pusher you're going to be a forward bot anyway. There's no other way if you want to handle balls.

[=Martin=Taylor=]

Originally Posted by waialua359

So you're doing this with your kicker NOT passing the bumper perimeter?

Yeah yeah. shoot me. sry

[Nurnburger]

Originally Posted by ssa3512

Nurnburger, I don't you understood what I was saying. I was talking about two areas. There is the area between the outside of the bumper and the outside of the frame perimeter (~3.5 inches) and an area inside the frame perimeter (up to 3 inches) for a total of ~6.5 inches of penetration of the ball beneath the bumper.

I was referring the concave control object you proposed under the bumper, which would be illegal.

I agree that it's possible to have issues hitting your bumpers if you try to pop the ball up. I also have noticed in our testing that lofting the ball at an angle high enough to hit the bumpers would be totally impractical, so I don't think it will prevent bots from kicking the ball over the bumps.