<G39> Pinning

[Matthew2c4u]

Wait for q/a or team update. Right now its unclear, and it will be fixed but for now its just speculation.

[ssa3512]

<G32> ROBOT Protection while Righting – Before the FINALE, ROBOTS attempting to right themselves or their ALLIANCE partners have one 10-second grace period per fallen ROBOT in which they may not be contacted by an opposing ROBOT. This protection continues for either 10 seconds or when the protected ROBOTS have completed the righting operation, whichever time comes first. Violation: PENALTY for inadvertent contact; plus a RED CARD for obviously intentional contact.
<G39> Pinning - A ROBOT may not pin (inhibit the movement of another ROBOT that is in contact with a field element, border, or goal) for more than 5 seconds. If a ROBOT has been pinned for 5 seconds, the team with the pinning ROBOT will be signaled by a referee to release the pinned ROBOT and back away approximately 6 feet. Once the pinning ROBOT has backed off by 6 feet for 3 seconds, it may again attempt to pin its opponent, and if successful, the 5 second count will start over. Violation: One PENALTY for each violation.

Would it be illegal to block your opponent's goal with a disabled robot (after the ten second grace period) The way I am interpreting the pinning rule in regards to this is that the robot is incapacitated, and thus you are not "inhibiting [its] movement"
What about pinning an opponents robot with a disabled robot?

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Formerly Famous

That being said, that is not what they mean. That is what the rules say, but the intention is to say "Don't pin. It isn't kind. It takes away from the fun of the game.

-Rion

And you know this how?

If the GDC didn't want pinning at all, why would they allow any amount of it?

[Matthew2c4u]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

And you know this how?

If the GDC didn't want pinning at all, why would they allow any amount of it?

Because it will happen inadvertently and thats all they currently allow for.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Matthew2c4u

Because it will happen inadvertently and thats all they currently allow for.

Are you sure that the pinning rule only has 5 seconds of grace solely because of inadvertent pins?

The point I'm trying to make is that we shouldn't go "Oh, the GDC wants the game to be played like this, so intentional pins are bad", but that the rules should be read as written when discussing strategy.

I know my team will take full advantage of four second pins this year.

[johnr]

How can a bump in the road be a field element? It is just raised carpet. Not a wall.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by johnr

How can a bump in the road be a field element? It is just raised carpet. Not a wall.

The rack, the ramps, the goals (2005), the central platform (2004), the towers...

What do all those have in common? Yep, they're field elements. None of them is a wall. The rack could even move. Yet you could pin against them (save for the rack). Why should the bump be any different?

[johnr]

Could the robot drive over those items you mentioned.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by johnr

Could the robot drive over those items you mentioned.

Through the goals (unless you got them on the sides), over the 2004 platform, if you did it the right way, and the towers are this year, so you can go under. The ramps would have been a yes on the ramp face and a definite no on the floor by the sides. (Incidentally, the 2006 ramp was a no-pinning-penalty zone if both robots were off the carpet.)

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by johnr

Could the robot drive over those items you mentioned.

Yes, the 2005 goals could be driven over.

[Rion Atkinson]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Are you sure that the pinning rule only has 5 seconds of grace solely because of inadvertent pins?

The point I'm trying to make is that we shouldn't go "Oh, the GDC wants the game to be played like this, so intentional pins are bad", but that the rules should be read as written when discussing strategy.

I know my team will take full advantage of four second pins this year.

We all say that the GDC is evil yes. But we are just kidding. This world still has morals, thus the reason that FIRST wants us to learn GP. How gracious is it to pin the other team for 4 seconds for a full minute? Morals are a big part of the rules. Where else did "Not in the spirit of the game' came from?

Even Disney's Pixar movie "Cars" understood this. The end scene, one car got destroyed because the ungracious attitude of another. Yet the main character which help him to still finish the race, was considered the winner.

So who would you respect, the team that wins; but was pinning the whole round? Or the team that lost due to being pinned, but never got mad? It's up to you.

I know I just laid a pile of "GP crap" in your lap. But honestly Chris, it's how I see it.

-Rion

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Formerly Famous

We all say that the GDC is evil yes. But we are just kidding. This world still has morals, thus the reason that FIRST wants us to learn GP. How gracious is it to pin the other team for 4 seconds for a full minute? Morals are a big part of the rules. Where else did "Not in the spirit of the game' came from?

Even Disney's Pixar movie "Cars" understood this. The end scene, one car got destroyed because the ungracious attitude of another. Yet the main character which help him to still finish the race, was considered the winner.

So who would you respect, the team that wins; but was pinning the whole round? Or the team that lost due to being pinned, but never got mad? It's up to you.

I know I just laid a pile of "GP crap" in your lap. But honestly Chris, it's how I see it.

-Rion

Not to say that you are wrong, but I think this view is minority. It has been debated how GP playing defense is and it seems most view it as a viable stratedgy. The fact that pinning for 4 seconds has been allowed and used in the past (2007) and the GDC again allows it, shows that they don't have a problem with it. While you may view it as wrong, I would suggest you understand that it will happen and you should plan accordingly.

[Nawaid Ladak]

I believe that pinning is possibly the greatest form of respect twards a given robot.

Think about it, if your robot is getting pinned, Why is it getting pinned? It's not because your a average robot who can score an average amount of balls. It's because you are at a minimum the best robot on your alliance. You score at a excellent pace and are able to hang effectively near the end of the match. The opposing alliance clearly believes that if your robot is not defended upon. They will lose the match. You can ask great teams of years past if they got pinned and why they believe they got pinned. I think most of them will give you somewhat the same answer that i expressed above.

The truly great teams somehow someway get out of these situations and propel their team to victory.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Formerly Famous

We all say that the GDC is evil yes. But we are just kidding. This world still has morals, thus the reason that FIRST wants us to learn GP. How gracious is it to pin the other team for 4 seconds for a full minute? Morals are a big part of the rules. Where else did "Not in the spirit of the game' came from?

Even Disney's Pixar movie "Cars" understood this. The end scene, one car got destroyed because the ungracious attitude of another. Yet the main character which help him to still finish the race, was considered the winner.

So who would you respect, the team that wins; but was pinning the whole round? Or the team that lost due to being pinned, but never got mad? It's up to you.

I know I just laid a pile of "GP crap" in your lap. But honestly Chris, it's how I see it.

-Rion

Morals? Isn't it immoral (and not GP) not to try your best? And if your best chance at winning is to pin/release/re-pin/adinfinitum isn't that what you should do?

As long as you follow the rules ... pin for less than 5 seconds, give 6 feet clearence, give 3 seconds to free themselves, repeat ... then morals do not enter the equation. We're not talking about damaging another robot, or breaking any rules.

I suggest you take your "pile of GP crap" and re-evaluate how you are measuring others, because GP isn't a yardstick to measure others by, it is a goal for each individual to live by.

[Chris is me]

I have personally never felt that any legal game strategy is "un-GP" as then it becomes a slippery slope. Next people will be telling me playing any defense is "un-GP", or hoarding balls is "un-GP", or doing anoything that involves your opponent is "un-GP". While one should not win at all costs (i.e., by breaking the rules, trying to work around them, lawyering), if there is a perfectly legal defensive strategy that has existed for years without being changed, I see no reason why it becomes "un-GP" to do it again just because doing it too much is illegal.