G17 (ball return time limit) penalties in endgame

[sparrowkc]

<G17> BALL Return Timing - BALLS must be returned to the FIELD within a specified period of time to prevent delaying the game according to the following algorithm: Texpire = Tscore - [11 + (4 * n)]

Would a penalty be incurred if a ball was scored when there was not enough time for the human player to return it before the match was over? The discussions I see here seem to indicate that many people assume that it would be, but I'm not so sure.
Example scenario:

Clock reads 5 seconds left, and a single ball is scored.
Texpire = 5 - [11 + (4 * 0)] = -6

The clock will obviously never read negative six seconds. My interpretation is that no penalty would be incurred because Texpire will never be reached, and my opinion is that If the GDC didn't mean for that to be the case, they would have added a >=0 to the G17 equation.

Forgive me if this has already been discussed or if I am missing something that makes this clear.


Edit:
Also, I think this interpretation would be in the spirit of the rule

...to prevent delaying the game..

since you can't delay the game when the game is over.

[karatekid]

This has been dicussed briefly (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=79755). This probably means that the ball does not need to be returned before the game ends.

[Paul Rodi]

Your result indicates that the ball must be returned 6 seconds after the buzzer.
Which brings up an interesting question - Can you return balls after the buzzer? You return a ball after the buzzer it bounces off you hanging robot and goes into the goal - Does it count?

Also the game manual states,"In general, this means that the team will have 11 seconds to return a BALL to the FIELD once it is SCORED, and an additional 4 seconds for each successive BALL in the ALLIANCE STATION, until all BALLS are returned to the FIELD."

I believe the equation gives you 15 secs to return the first ball and 4 additional seconds for each additional ball.

Is Texpire continually recalculated as balls are added or is it calculated once for each ball?

[johnr]

I guess we will be waiting awhile for game objects to come to a stop if someone puts a ball on return track at one second left. Crazy idea. Hang and also block ball return to deflect balls back into your end.

[Kims Robot]

Originally Posted by Paul Rodi

I believe the equation gives you 15 secs to return the first ball and 4 additional seconds for each additional ball.

Is Texpire continually recalculated as balls are added or is it calculated once for each ball?

I read it the same exact way, but their followup note leads me to believe that they (like most programmers) start counting at 0. So the first ball that goes through is n=0, two go through and n=1.

A good question for the Q&A though.

[EricH]

Folks, you may wish to reference the DOGMA document located at http://usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Com...sets/DOGMA.pdf

Texpire is calculated once per ball; the next ball in gets a new Texpire flag set. If the timer gets to a flag, a penalty is assessed. The first ball onto the return clears the next flag in the software.

Seeing as the field timer can never get to -6 seconds, I would say that anything coming in in the last 11 seconds doesn't have to be returned to the field (though I'm sure field reset would appreciate having all the balls on the field instead of in the player stations).

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by EricH

Seeing as the field timer can never get to -6 seconds, I would say that anything coming in in the last 11 seconds doesn't have to be returned to the field (though I'm sure field reset would appreciate having all the balls on the field instead of in the player stations).

Do you have a reference that states that the field timer will never reach -6? or that texpire doesn't continue beyond the end of the match?

I hate to be a stickler, but according to the way it's written the alliance would still need to reintroduce the ball to the field in the requisite time or be penalized.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Do you have a reference that states that the field timer will never reach -6? or that texpire doesn't continue beyond the end of the match?

I hate to be a stickler, but according to the way it's written the alliance would still need to reintroduce the ball to the field in the requisite time or be penalized.

I do not have a reference. However, let us use logic.

Let us assume that a ball enters the chute at T=1 second remaining. For simplicity, there are no balls in the station, leaving an 11-second countdown. This means that (ordinarily) the ball must pass through the return counter before T= -10 seconds. Are we agreed on this?

According to <G05>, scores are calculated at T= -10 (10 seconds after the field timer displays 0), or when everything comes to rest, whichever comes first. To assess a penalty for a ball not going through the return counter by T= -10, the following would have to happen:
1) Something on the field would need to be moving for all 10 seconds. We can claim, for the sake of argument, that this is the ball being returned. Also,
2) The ball has to go through the counter at or after T= -10 (not sure which it is, but looking at the DOGMA graphical description, we'll assume after, as a further penalty is to be applied for every 2 seconds late after the timer trips, and is not applied when a ball goes through 2 seconds after the timer trips.)

So, we assume that 1) and 2) happen, and the ball goes through at T= -11. A penalty is assigned, right? Wrong! Scoring, if you remember, stops at T= -10 under <G05>. (This is, of course, aside from refs verifying everything like robots hanging on towers.)

This is for the case of a score with 1 second left. Logically, it would not get a penalty. But what about the case with 2 seconds left and nothing in the station?

We have established that the ball will have until T = -9 seconds. Again, looking at the conditions above, we see that it is possible to get a penalty in this instance, assuming that both 1) and 2) are true. But what if our assumption that the ball moving in the station is enough to delay the scoring to the 10-second mark is false? Then 1) is false, and automatic scoring has already finished.

So, under certain conditions, it would be possible to get a penalty for a ball scored at T = 2 seconds, if an assumption is true, and not possible if it is false. The same case can be made out to T = 11 seconds.

But wait! What if there's another ball in the station? That adds 4 seconds onto the time to return. So, for anything under 5 seconds, with one already in, the conditions say that no penalty could be applied if our assumption in condition 1) was true. For two balls already in, the same can apply to anything under 9 seconds. And for 3? Well, that goes out to 13 seconds (though you really want to start getting those balls back out there at that point).

In other words, if the timer in fact keeps going, at least in software, then after a certain point, teams will get penalties assigned by the software for not returning the balls to the field, even though time has expired, and after another point, they will not get any more.

Under <G03>, the match ends when the arena timer displays 0 seconds. So, after a match, you give a team a penalty that was earned after the match ended. A penalty, not a card. Let's say that there are two such penalties, and they would have won by one point without them. And, to take this example to an extreme, let's say that this has been consistently applied throughout all events, and this particular instance happens in Match 3 of the Championship Finals.

Now, if you're a ref/GDC member/algorithm developer, do YOU want to hear the "So-and-so's X cost Y the World Championship because a penalty was given after a match ended" complaints? Didn't think so. Especially if this has already been happening at the regional events.

If your take is correct, and teams lose matches because of that, then according to Murphy's Law, the above will happen at least once, and probably more. (I'm disregarding the seeding point discussion, because that's going to make it even worse.) Under <G03>, it should not happen at all.