Carrying <G44>

[Chris is me]

Can you draw a picture of where the ball lands?

If I'm thinkning what I think it is and it's basically just a flat slope with nothing else on it (ie if you turn it slides off, if you go backward it slides off) then I think it's legal (Q&A prevails of course)

[lcoreyl]

It appears the possible loophole here is:
______________
POSSESSION: Controlling the position and movement of a BALL. A BALL shall be considered in POSSESSION if, as the ROBOT moves or changes orientation (e.g. backs up or spins in place), the BALL remains in approximately the same position relative to the ROBOT.

CARRYING: POSSESSING a BALL that is not in contact with the FIELD

<R19> ROBOTS must be designed so that in normal operation BALLS cannot extend more than 3 inches inside the FRAME PERIMETER below the level of the BUMPER ZONE.
______________

According to the definition, possession only happens if you move. Carrying includes the definition of possession, so if you're not moving, you're not in possession, you're not carrying. So your funnel would seem to work if you don't move during the period it is being funneled and you kick it from above the bumper zone

However, since they are playing off of a soccer analogy, I'm pretty sure they are intending for you to never do anything with the ball other than have it deflect off the top. Otherwise you could build a shooter that doesn't move.

[StephLee]

Originally Posted by lcoreyl

It appears the possible loophole here is:
______________
POSSESSION: Controlling the position and movement of a BALL. A BALL shall be considered in POSSESSION if, as the ROBOT moves or changes orientation (e.g. backs up or spins in place), the BALL remains in approximately the same position relative to the ROBOT.

CARRYING: POSSESSING a BALL that is not in contact with the FIELD

<R19> ROBOTS must be designed so that in normal operation BALLS cannot extend more than 3 inches inside the FRAME PERIMETER below the level of the BUMPER ZONE.
______________

According to the definition, possession only happens if you move. Carrying includes the definition of possession, so if you're not moving, you're not in possession, you're not carrying. So your funnel would seem to work if you don't move during the period it is being funneled and you kick it from above the bumper zone

However, since they are playing off of a soccer analogy, I'm pretty sure they are intending for you to never do anything with the ball other than have it deflect off the top. Otherwise you could build a shooter that doesn't move.

I could be wrong, but I read the definition of possession slightly differently. I thought it meant that a ball is considered possessed if it would maintain approximately the same location relative to the robot IF your robot moved. For example, if I have a grip on it and don't move, it's still being possessed because it would satisfy the criteria if I DID move.

That's for the Q&A to decide, but that's how I read the rule.

[Matt C]

Remember the NEXT RULE in the manual is <G45>

<G45> Active BALL control - ROBOTS may not control BALL direction with active MECHANISMS above the BUMPER ZONE. Violation: PENALTY.

[hipsterjr]

Originally Posted by Matt C

Remember the NEXT RULE in the manual is <G45>

That is the source of the debate. Is a chute concidered "active"? We'll find out tomorrow.

[jvriezen]

Seems like an upper surface on your robot made of memory foam to reduce bouncing, contoured and sloped such that balls hitting the foam will tend to land in front of the robot would be a good idea.

Since the robot is encouraged to be designed to not unintentionally carry balls, you have to have some sort of sloping top, might as well make it slope in your favor, and construct it of material in your favor.

Or is this going to violate the rules?

[kirtar]

Originally Posted by jvriezen

Seems like an upper surface on your robot made of memory foam to reduce bouncing, contoured and sloped such that balls hitting the foam will tend to land in front of the robot would be a good idea.

Since the robot is encouraged to be designed to not unintentionally carry balls, you have to have some sort of sloping top, might as well make it slope in your favor, and construct it of material in your favor.

Or is this going to violate the rules?

How I'm thinking about it I doubt it will break the rules, but that depends on implementation. If you put some kind of siding on it that would cause the relative position to not change while you turn then you should be fine. Any changes in velocity of your robot are unlikely to have a significant impact on the absolute velocity/position of the ball, causing a definite change in relative position. The only thing that I'm concerned about is what you mean by contoured. If you mean putting a track to direct the ball, I think that's a little questionable.

[Kims Robot]

I had the same idea, although I was thinking of making it out of something slick just so the ball couldnt get caught (I like the dampening of the memory foam but I would be concerned about it potentially possessing the ball)

Here is my fairly crude drawing, but it should get the point across

Other than making some sort of pyramid or convex surface Im not sure how else you prevent yourself from possessing a ball...

(Remember if you do ask this in the Q&A dont use a specific robot design, just refer to the rules and ask questions about the rules themselves).

[jvriezen]

Originally Posted by kirtar

How I'm thinking about it I doubt it will break the rules, but that depends on implementation. If you put some kind of siding on it that would cause the relative position to not change while you turn then you should be fine. Any changes in velocity of your robot are unlikely to have a significant impact on the absolute velocity/position of the ball, causing a definite change in relative position. The only thing that I'm concerned about is what you mean by contoured. If you mean putting a track to direct the ball, I think that's a little questionable.

By contoured, I was envisioning something like a playground slide, perhaps with some plexiglass walls that increased the catching area. I would like to think that as long as you have a non-moving top side that 'sheds' the balls (via gravity) off of the robot to avoid carrying them, it shouldn't really matter what the shape and material of that shedding surface is.

But I'll agree, it is definitely something I wouldn't recommend doing until cleared by FIRST.

[jvriezen]

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

I had the same idea, although I was thinking of making it out of something slick just so the ball couldnt get caught (I like the dampening of the memory foam but I would be concerned about it potentially possessing the ball)

Here is my fairly crude drawing, but it should get the point across

Other than making some sort of pyramid or convex surface Im not sure how else you prevent yourself from possessing a ball...

(Remember if you do ask this in the Q&A dont use a specific robot design, just refer to the rules and ask questions about the rules themselves).

Your diagrams are very much like my original thinking. But a slick surface will just have them bounce off most of the time.

[Bob Steele]

In my opinion if you have something on top of your robot that could potentially carry the ball ( IE something with sides on it....) it will be considered illegal.

therefore if you decide on some type of chute system that IF your robot were turning when a ball is engaged by it and IF the chute would make the ball turn in the direction you are turning you would have an illegal mechanism.

A simple slanted flat surface would seem to be ok given this approach.

A u-shaped track or a flat surface with sides to guide the ball would not


by the way
I do really like the idea of referring to the balls as "possessed "
Puts a whole different "dark" light on the game....

Good Luck and we will see you at the competition..!!

[jvriezen]

Originally Posted by Bob Steele

In my opinion if you have something on top of your robot that could potentially carry the ball ( IE something with sides on it....) it will be considered illegal.

therefore if you decide on some type of chute system that IF your robot were turning when a ball is engaged by it and IF the chute would make the ball turn in the direction you are turning you would have an illegal mechanism.

A simple slanted flat surface would seem to be ok given this approach.

A u-shaped track or a flat surface with sides to guide the ball would not

POSSESSION requires that the ball stays in the same position relative to the robot as it turns or reverses. Since a chute/track is inclined, the ball will be rolling down the ramp-- although the ramp influences the ball's position as you turn, it doesn't stay still relative to the robot, and it isn't active, so I think it is legal, but of course Q & A has the final say.