Soccer Ball Sold Out

[MrForbes]

One solution is to buy several different types of soccer balls (or have students bring theirs) and make your robot so it will work the same with all of them.

[Doug G]

It was fun to talk to the rep from DTI yesterday. Apparantly we were the first to place an online order with them on Saturday, so he called and asked what was going on. Why is everyone ordering these balls on the same day? At first he thought it was some practical joke. I mean, how often does a company sell all of its product in a matter of hours ... by surprise. Anyhow, they (the rep at least) was completely unaware their ball was being used for this competition.

[Josh Goodman]

At least there aren't over 40 Soccer balls for the game this year.....

[Akash Rastogi]

Dang I knew I should have invested in DTI on Saturday.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Doug G

I mean, how often does a company sell all of its product in a matter of hours ... by surprise. Anyhow, they (the rep at least) was completely unaware their ball was being used for this competition.

If this is true, I find it to unacceptable. The orbit fall fiasco last year was BAD, so I would think FIRST would take as many measures as possible to avoid that in the future. I definitely like the soccer ball as a game piece, but as others have said here, not all of them react the same. I would think that choosing this companies ball as THE ball of the 2010 FRC game would warrant a phone call to let them know...

-Brando

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

If this is true, I find it to unacceptable. The orbit fall fiasco last year was BAD, so I would think FIRST would take as many measures as possible to avoid that in the future. I definitely like the soccer ball as a game piece, but as others have said here, not all of them react the same. I would think that choosing this companies ball as THE ball of the 2010 FRC game would warrant a phone call to let them know...

-Brando

I heard through a person from FIRST that it is the fault of a couple of people who feel like they should keep it under wraps for fear that it will get out into the FIRST community. It is annoying, especially for teams because FIRST already has the ones they need, but we are left hanging with out of stock suppliers scratching their heads waiting for someone to pop out and say, "January fool"!

Oh well, at least it is an item available to most every team, just not an exact copy.

[TD912]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

I think that choosing this companies ball as THE ball of the 2010 FRC game would warrant a phone call to let them know...

-Brando

Depends on how early they would let them know. The more people FIRST tells about their game, the more likely details would leak out to the general public early.

[jamie_1930]

My suggestion would be to make sure you can quickly adapt your robot to match different balls. For instance have all your programming variables organized so that when you get to competition you can go to the practice field and change your variables (if any matter to the trajectory of the ball) to best suit the game balls from DTI. It would be good practice, if you choose to do this, to have team members bring in their own soccer balls from home and have the programmers practice adapting to different balls based, to speed up the proccess at competition.

[StevenB]

Originally Posted by jamie_1930

My suggestion would be to make sure you can quickly adapt your robot to match different balls. For instance have all your programming variables organized so that when you get to competition you can go to the practice field and change your variables (if any matter to the trajectory of the ball) to best suit the game balls from DTI.

That's easy to say, but soccer ball dynamics aren't like camera calibration - I don't expect to have a ball stickiness coefficient in my code. I expect that many of the problems won't be able to be solved in software (yes, there are problems us software guys can't fix), such as the balls sticking in places rather than sliding or rolling.

That said, the suggestion to test your robot with a variety of balls is a good one. Odds are that even the official balls will behave a little different in the off-season than at regionals.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

I heard through a person from FIRST that it is the fault of a couple of people who feel like they should keep it under wraps for fear that it will get out into the FIRST community. It is annoying, especially for teams because FIRST already has the ones they need, but we are left hanging with out of stock suppliers scratching their heads waiting for someone to pop out and say, "January fool"!

Oh well, at least it is an item available to most every team, just not an exact copy.

Originally Posted by TD912

Depends on how early they would let them know. The more people FIRST tells about their game, the more likely details would leak out to the general public early.

Originally Posted by jamie_1930

My suggestion would be to make sure you can quickly adapt your robot to match different balls. For instance have all your programming variables organized so that when you get to competition you can go to the practice field and change your variables (if any matter to the trajectory of the ball) to best suit the game balls from DTI. It would be good practice, if you choose to do this, to have team members bring in their own soccer balls from home and have the programmers practice adapting to different balls based, to speed up the proccess at competition.

Guys, I'm right there with you in agreement with FIRST keeping their games under wraps. They absolutely need to take into account the secrecy of the game. That being said, I feel this is an issue that can be handled rather simply when communicating with a company. It is a large commitment (think about the amount of FRC teams that need soccer balls now). Why should I have to design my robot to work with a bunch of different balls when I know exactly which one will be used in competition? It seems to me like this is a problem that can be handled better.

[dtengineering]

I'll begin this with my standard preface that I've got a lot of respect for the GDC and the job they do, and the people at FIRST HQ for growing FIRST in a time of restraint. It looks like they've created a good game this year, and by and large I strongly approve of the job they do.

BUT... if it is indeed the case that the soccer balls are now sold out, this is entirely inexcusable. Last year... the first time... was a forgivable mistake. But to source game pieces made of unobtainium for two years in a row is unacceptable.

They didn't need to contact DTI and say "We're FIRST robotics and want to use your pieces in a top secret game", they merely needed to ask, "Are you capable of supplying several thousand HS300 soccer balls in January?" (Perhaps this was asked... I don't know...)

If not... on to the next supplier.

This lack of game pieces is particularly egregious as I tried to order two soccer balls on Sunday, but couldn't because I'M FROM CANADA. DTI's website offers no option other than to be from the United States. So I tried phoning their 1-800 number this week... but the 1-800 number... the only prominent phone number on their site is "NOT AVAILABLE IN YOUR AREA".

So now I've e-mailed them, but so far my only response has been an automated message asking me to confirm that the message I sent wasn't spam.

So based on my experience, and what I read here, it was IMPOSSIBLE for a team outside the USA to purchase a regulation soccer ball unless they placed a phone order on Saturday afternoon. Sounds like we're in good company with many American teams... but hey... at least you guys had a chance!

Yeah... we can buy soccer balls in Canada (on the shelf, under the hockey pucks)... and if we had ONE... just ONE of the originals, we could probably find a pretty close match in terms of surface and stitching.

But we don't, and... from the sounds of it won't... get our hands on one of the game pieces until March 25.

It might not make a difference, and I know FIRST did everything they could to come through for us last year with the moon rocks... and they might be able to pull something off this year.... but really... how cheap are they getting at FRC headquarters to leave an important $10 piece out of a KoP that costs several thousand dollars?

Sheesh...

Like I say, I like the game, and if FIRST did check for availability and DTI lied to them, then my apologies. But I make no apologies for saying this wouldn't even be perceived as a problem if they'd put just ONE regulation ball in every KoP. I'd happily trade the KoP wheels... especially the rather useless slick ones... for one regulation soccer ball.

Jason

[indieFan]

Wait a second. You all mean to tell me that you expect to have a specific soccer ball available to you?

Isn't this just another part of the engineering problem? At my company, we have to begin building things before we have everything in house due to contract issues. We have to begin building things before we have test benches set up. We are a development area, so we're constantly looking for the right material for the right job.

And, in my opinion, if you are designing for a single specific soccer ball, you are being too narrow minded in your design. The manual even states that the "...color and surface may vary." Are you going to deflate your ball to various pressures during testing? Are you going to scuff parts of the ball up during testing? While you could, you probably won't.

Just expand your design to cover a range of possibilities and you'll be fine. If required, test one of the smooth, rubber, non-stitched soccer balls like the ones used in Phys. Ed. and one that is a quality competition, stitched soccer ball. If both work, you're design is robust enough to handle any type of soccer ball thrown at it.

Otherwise, good luck finding one in an auction on ebay or through nextag.

indieFan

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by indieFan

Wait a second. You all mean to tell me that you expect to have a specific soccer ball available to you?

Isn't this just another part of the engineering problem? At my company, we have to begin building things before we have everything in house due to contract issues. We have to begin building things before we have test benches set up. We are a development area, so we're constantly looking for the right material for the right job.

And, in my opinion, if you are designing for a single specific soccer ball, you are being too narrow minded in your design. The manual even states that the "...color and surface may vary." Are you going to deflate your ball to various pressures during testing? Are you going to scuff parts of the ball up during testing? While you could, you probably won't.

Just expand your design to cover a range of possibilities and you'll be fine. If required, test one of the smooth, rubber, non-stitched soccer balls like the ones used in Phys. Ed. and one that is a quality competition, stitched soccer ball. If both work, you're design is robust enough to handle any type of soccer ball thrown at it.

Otherwise, good luck finding one in an auction on ebay or through nextag.

indieFan

The issue is with the camera system, a camera can have trouble picking up different colors or reflection patterns

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by indieFan

Wait a second. You all mean to tell me that you expect to have a specific soccer ball available to you?

Isn't this just another part of the engineering problem? At my company, we have to begin building things before we have everything in house due to contract issues. We have to begin building things before we have test benches set up. We are a development area, so we're constantly looking for the right material for the right job.

And, in my opinion, if you are designing for a single specific soccer ball, you are being too narrow minded in your design. The manual even states that the "...color and surface may vary." Are you going to deflate your ball to various pressures during testing? Are you going to scuff parts of the ball up during testing? While you could, you probably won't.

Just expand your design to cover a range of possibilities and you'll be fine. If required, test one of the smooth, rubber, non-stitched soccer balls like the ones used in Phys. Ed. and one that is a quality competition, stitched soccer ball. If both work, you're design is robust enough to handle any type of soccer ball thrown at it.

Otherwise, good luck finding one in an auction on ebay or through nextag.

indieFan

I think you're missing the point.

I look at it like ordering car parts. Nothing better than genuine.
Also, the fact that some teams got it and others have a close imitation (or not) is a problem.
I'm sure everyone involved at FIRST try their best to avoid possible issues during build season, but still, the issue should've been addressed to avoid the same thing happening in back to back years.

[Fred Sayre]

Hopefully someone who has the exact ball can compare it to some more widely available balls and post to let everyone know. Our team asked all of the kids to bring one from home and we are testing with all of them until we get a chance at a regulation one. So far there has been quite a bit of performance difference between balls, and getting the right pressure is pretty important.