ELEVATED but not hanging?

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Another interesting way to think about suspended is this:

Let's say robot 1 is elevated such that the bottom of the robot is at 24" by doing a pull-up on one of the horizontal bars on the tower. It now "sticks out its tongue (made of LEXAN, of course) and lays on the platform. If it stays within the 85 inches and another robot drives on the platform and is only on the LEXAN, then that robot is SUSPENDED and worth 3 points. The totla for that maneuver is 5 points.

In a similar manner if you can hang using a small portion of the horizontal bar and put some type of thin shell out covering the rest of the bar, an alliance partner may be able to lift themselves up using that shell covered bar. The tower would bear all the load, but they would still get points for being SUSPENDED.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Another interesting way to think about suspended is this:

Let's say robot 1 is elevated such that the bottom of the robot is at 24" by doing a pull-up on one of the horizontal bars on the tower. It now "sticks out its tongue (made of LEXAN, of course) and lays on the platform. If it stays within the 85 inches and another robot drives on the platform and is only on the LEXAN, then that robot is SUSPENDED and worth 3 points. The totla for that maneuver is 5 points.

We thought ours was good but this is a bit more clever.

[Tom I]

Any rules against hanging, and then draping the tower with a curtain? I specifically remember in 04, teams would put lexan shields over the bar you had to hang from so that other teams WOULD be touching their robot, and thus NOT be considered hanging! with this game, you could do the reverse in order TO get the other two alliance partners to be Suspended rather than Elevated!

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Tom I

Any rules against hanging, and then draping the tower with a curtain? I specifically remember in 04, teams would put lexan shields over the bar you had to hang from so that other teams WOULD be touching their robot, and thus NOT be considered hanging! with this game, you could do the reverse in order TO get the other two alliance partners to be Suspended rather than Elevated!

There is nothing in the rules against this and is basically what I was suggesting above taken beyond just the bar you are hanging from.

[nnfuller]

Originally Posted by James Tonthat

On the other hand, if one of your wires hangs down under the platform, you get no points. Just sayin'

Please at least zip tie your wires... that would be a horrible reason to lose 2/3 points

[Rosiebotboss]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Another interesting way to think about suspended is this:

Let's say robot 1 is elevated such that the bottom of the robot is at 24" by doing a pull-up on one of the horizontal bars on the tower. It now "sticks out its tongue (made of LEXAN, of course) and lays on the platform. If it stays within the 85 inches and another robot drives on the platform and is only on the LEXAN, then that robot is SUSPENDED and worth 3 points. The totla for that maneuver is 5 points.

The official definition--SUSPENDED: A ROBOT only in contact with an ELEVATED ROBOT and/or a SUSPENDED ROBOT shall be considered SUSPENDED.

My interpretation- While I like your thinking out side the box, my gut tells me there will be a ruling forthcoming from the GDC that this manuver will be illegal. The intent of the rule is to have the 2nd robot hanging from the robot that is hanging from the tower.

My .02.

[Paul Copioli]

Dana,

This doesn't happen often, but I totally disagree with you on your interpretation. Nowhere do they reference the word "hanging" when they talk about SUSPENDED. At first, I thought what you thought, but now I am convinced the scenario I posted earlier will remain perfectly legal.

Think of it this way: what if I had ramps on my robot so you could drive up my robot. Then I had some mechanism that lifted both of us up and I was above the platform. Your robot is definitely not hanging from mine as it is sitting on my robot, but you are certainly SUSPENDED based on the definition in the rules.

What am I missing?

Paul

[dipmeinaluminum]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Dana,

This doesn't happen often, but I totally disagree with you on your interpretation. Nowhere do they reference the word "hanging" when they talk about SUSPENDED. At first, I thought what you thought, but now I am convinced the scenario I posted earlier will remain perfectly legal.

Think of it this way: what if I had ramps on my robot so you could drive up my robot. Then I had some mechanism that lifted both of us up and I was above the platform. Your robot is definitely not hanging from mine as it is sitting on my robot, but you are certainly SUSPENDED based on the definition in the rules.

What am I missing?

Paul

I have to agree, the design team and I are going crazy over this. Nowhere does it say hang.

"ELEVATED: A ROBOT that is completely above the plane of the PLATFORM and in contact with the TOWER shall be considered ELEVATED."

fine i accept this. now what's considered a PART of the tower?

"A TOWER is located in the center of each BUMP. Each TOWER is composed of a base and a pipe
superstructure. The PLATFORM is the horizontal surface of the base, and provides a solid surface
to support ROBOTS during the game"

ok, fine.....so if i drive on the PLATFORM i am awarded 2pts..and i am considered ELEVATED.

"SUSPENDED: A ROBOT only in contact with an ELEVATED ROBOT and/or a SUSPENDED
ROBOT shall be considered SUSPENDED."

so that robot cannot be in contact with anything else but an ELEVATED robot. but what if they climb on me like in 2007, and I am ELEVATED, and I AM in CONTACT with the TOWER......

If i am right. someone on my team is going to bake me cupcakes for Mentors Day...
CD, i need cupcakes....

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Another interesting way to think about suspended is this:

Let's say robot 1 is elevated such that the bottom of the robot is at 24" by doing a pull-up on one of the horizontal bars on the tower. It now "sticks out its tongue (made of LEXAN, of course) and lays on the platform. If it stays within the 85 inches and another robot drives on the platform and is only on the LEXAN, then that robot is SUSPENDED and worth 3 points. The totla for that maneuver is 5 points.

Curse you Copioli! I thought of that right after my last post and was hoping it'd go unnoticed. As for your second post... Stop stealing my team's design ideas. Sadly, I don't think we'll be able to fit ramps AND an effective red (or blue) carpet into the 84" cylinder, so we'll likely leave this to some other team to try. Still, it seems like a reasonable gamble, though the team on the platform would have to be pretty careful to only touch your red carpet.

Seconding your reply to Dana, I obviously agree with my interpretation of the rules as written. As written the rules say nothing at all about hanging, support, or any of the other terminology the GDC has used in past games where hanging was involved. There's been 4 games I can recall where you got points for hanging/being above something. I'm thinking that if the GDC intended for ELEVATED to mean fully supported by the tower and above the platform, they could have drawn on prior rules to write it up that way. Similar on SUSPENDED.

I'm perfectly willing for the GDC to prove me wrong here, but doing so is going to involve a massive redefinition of ELEVATED and SUSPENDED. If the only motivation for doing so is to prohibit a moderately clever strategy that's still rather technically challenging*, then I'll be somewhat miffed with the GDC. Which has certainly happened before, but I remain ever hopeful.

*If you don't believe me, wait 6 weeks then tell me 57's system is simpler than a hook and a hanging bar.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by dipmeinaluminum

so that robot cannot be in contact with anything else but an ELEVATED robot. but what if they climb on me like in 2007, and I am ELEVATED, and I AM in CONTACT with the TOWER......

That would satisfy the definition of SUSPENDED.

I hope Paul's second example doesn't remain hypothetical this year.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

That would satisfy the definition of SUSPENDED.

Are you sure about that, Chris?

SUSPENDED: A ROBOT only in contact with an ELEVATED ROBOT and/or a SUSPENDED ROBOT shall be considered SUSPENDED.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by EricH

Are you sure about that, Chris?

Well, the robot climbed onto an ELEVATED robot (ELEVATED because it is in contact with the tower and above the plane), and it is not touching anything else. That's SUSPENDED to me. Unless I misread, but I checked again and I don't think I did.

[JesseK]

I don't believe the GDC will change the wording to say we MUST hang from the top bar to be considered elevated or suspended. As worded, the design challenges are already many and high in difficulty. I predict many robots will be able to ELEVATE themselves, yet very few will be able to become SUSPENDED unless a team specializes in suspending other teams.

[Paul Copioli]

All,

We usually bash the GDC when they vaguely word a rule so I will give them credit where credit is due. They really were very clear in the definitions of ELEVATED and SUSPENDED. Direct contact with tower or platform and above the platform = ELEVATED. Only in contact with an ELEVATED or SUSPENDED robot and [EDIT: NOT above the platform] = SUSPENDED. This is so obviously clear to me.

EDIT: My typing got ahead of me. The SUSPENDED robot does not have to be above the platform. I knew this, but just was on a roll ... sorry for the confusion.

Now for a word of caution about making ramps for others to climb on:

In 2007, it was clear the every team that wanted to play that game should have been able to climb a robot's ramps. However, A LOT of teams that thought they could climb, could not climb at all.

This year, the points aren't as high and the focus is not really on robot ramps. I expect even the best ramp robots this year will have very few teams able to drive on them. My team seriously considered being a ramp, but dismissed it due to the fact that we thought very few robots could climb on our back. My advice: worry about getting yourself elevated.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Well, the robot climbed onto an ELEVATED robot (ELEVATED because it is in contact with the tower and above the plane), and it is not touching anything else. That's SUSPENDED to me. Unless I misread, but I checked again and I don't think I did.

No, I misread the post you were responding to. My bad.