What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?

[Tom Fairchild]

I've always wondered why a second coach is needed to discuss strategy before a match. As a driver, I always did it myself. That way I knew exactly what was going on. What takes up other drivers' time before matches? Last year and in 2001, I never had any trouble strategizing. Two coaches can be very useful on the field, mind you. 2001 definitly was nice for that. There was so much tunnel vision while driving since everything had to be done so precisely (aka, balancing) that having one coach be an extra set of eyes and ears was a real plus. Last year having a 5th person on the field would have been completely uneccesarry. I say let FIRST decide on a problem by problem basis.

~Tom Fairchild~

[379Robocat]

I wouldn't mind seeing a second coach on the field. There are some years in which a second coach would be necssary ie: one coach for the drivers and the other for keeping score ( when you got twice your opponents score and so on). I agree that the coach should be a student. After six years of FIRST and a driver for four years I've seen many coaches that are really hard on the kids. This is a competitive sport but winning is not everything. Winning is not the main point FIRST is trying to teach. Many coaches are about winning and drilling these kids into the ground to the point that I have seen them cry. FIRST is to teach kids the principals of gracious professionalism, science and technology and communication. Many team coaches can't seem to get that into their head and go all out hardcore winning. The students are able to communicate with each other better and they understand each other better. They can talk "kid talk" and be able to be understood. So again I would like to see a second coach as long as it is a student.

[Rick TYler]

From the Land of the Undead Threads...

[Adam Richards]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

From the Land of the Undead Threads...

Right, but this is a topic that could be further debated now, as more time and games have elapsed to make the idea a valid option again.

[mtaman02]

Originally Posted by 379Robocat

I wouldn't mind seeing a second coach on the field. There are some years in which a second coach would be necssary ie: one coach for the drivers and the other for keeping score

Wow I didn't even realize this thread was still around, At least one of the many old but good threads are still open to discussion =)

A game like this years and like the last 3 games I still see no reason why 2 coaches are needed. Having 2 coaches in the drivers station really doesn't get much accomplished in a 2M:10S Round, The rounds are very short this year and leave no room to mess up with. By the time a stratedgy is agreed upon - 1/2 to 3/4 of the match would be over and the only thing made clear was pure confusion.

Personally Its hard to operate a robot with just one coach on the field (Student or Adult) To have 2 Coaches on the field would require a bottle of Aleve or Advil and some Halls cough drops. While I think having 2 coaches may be helpful that would be 6 more voices you would hear screaming over one another.

What if FIRST put this into play would that be better and a lil bit more fairer:

A drive team consisting of 2 Student Drivers 1 Student Human Player and 2 Adult or Student Coaches

A Team may have 2 Coaches on the field only if they have no intentions of using the Human Player for that Match [ Basically in order to have 2 coaches on the field you cannot have a human player on the field at all. The Second Coach WILL NOT be allowed to handle any balls whatso ever ]

Specific suggestions as to the 2nd Coaches Duties while on the field
1) Remind the alliance of which will be the backbot
2) Remind the alliance of which round of play they're in (Offense, Defense, Free for all)

While this seems unfair and I'm sure it does Just remember one thing - Only 2 Human Players can be aiming at the end goals at a time so rather having a 3rd human player on the field not doing anything you could trade him in for a round for a second coach to benefit the alliance in letting you guys know whats going on, this also may help with making it a penalty free match.

***ADDED - I Still see no reason to have 2 coaches, I mean if FIRST wants to they can let teams have the option to have 2 coaches but will probably take that feature away if they start to notice that only one coach is being used during the match***

Wow this became real long real quick eh nobodys perfect, any objections to this setup.

[Mr. Freeman]

I agree with only having one coach.

Our coach currently is in charge of informing the drivers of the time and providing a general direction of what to do.

The match is too short to come up with overly-specific strategies. The drivers just need to react more than anything else.

[Goldeye]

I disagree with people who disapprove of a second coach, saying it will create confusion for the drive team. Thhis is a problem easily faced by a well coordinated team, and can be safely expected of teams to handle. For example, the driver coach and strategy coach model seems very appropriate. It allows students to participate, and can only do as much harm as teams allow it to.
If your team doesn't need it, it doesn't use it. The same is true of having a single coach or a second driver now.

Originally Posted by Mr. Freeman

The match is too short to come up with overly-specific strategies. The drivers just need to react more than anything else.

Please read http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...87&postcount=1

Space is a fair concern.
Anyone with a real argument against a second coach, please speak.

[mtaman02]

Originally Posted by Goldeye

I disagree with people who disapprove of a second coach, saying it will create confusion for the drive team. Space is a fair concern.
Anyone with a real argument against a second coach, please speak.

OK To get things rolling onto the positive side

w/o me trying to bash the comments that were made

Question 1: what would the second coach be doing that the first coach hasn't already taken care of

Question 2: does this game really need that much of a strategy that 2 coaches are required to be on the field during a match

In 2001 Space was a BIG Concern only b/c it was 4 teams on one side per match, I think 2002 is when FIRST decided teams would be then placed diagnoally across from their opponents and it worked so well that FIRST kept it that way for 2003, In 2004 Teams were then placed directly across from one another and that worked well so FIRST kept it that way for 2005 and 2006 and I hope it stays like that through 2007 =)

Basically THERE Should be no reason to use space as an issue.

Back in 2002 when I was alternate driver for my old team - My teachers on the robotics team taught me one thing; during those 2 minutes the only communication your going to have w/ the drive squad is that 6th sense and that is you automatically know what your partner is going to do before they do it if you see them going for the goal you knew to be ready to fire that clamp and lock the goal in place till the match ended or unless told otherwise. During those 2 mintues you can't hear anyone standing behind you or even next to you, all you can do is watch the robots every move and be on your toes.

[Goldeye]

Originally Posted by mtaman02

Question 1: what would the second coach be doing that the first coach hasn't already taken care of

Question 2: does this game really need that much of a strategy that 2 coaches are required to be on the field during a match

I'd look at it at from a slightly different perspective.
2: Rather than requiring a second coach, it should only be an option; teams that don't think they'd benefit from it wouldn't use it.
1: While a second coach might not allow new duties to be made, there are several other possibilities. Already existing tasks can be distributed between the two. For example, one coach makes strategic decisions and the other communicates them to the drivers. (Some teams do instruct their drivers, so please no one assume that it is not possible to just because your team does not.) In some cases, the driver-coach is an adult because they can more effectively communicate to the drivers, while a student could quite often be the better choice for coaching strategy.
The largest benefit provided is that it would encourage student participation on the field if the second coach is mandated student-only.

[mtaman02]

Originally Posted by Goldeye

I'd look at it at from a slightly different perspective.
2: Rather than requiring a second coach, it should only be an option; teams that don't think they'd benefit from it wouldn't use it.
1: While a second coach might not allow new duties to be made, there are several other possibilities. Already existing tasks can be distributed between the two. For example, one coach makes strategic decisions and the other communicates them to the drivers.

Ok I can agree with #2 it wouldn't be a bad idea if it were left to the teams as an option to have.

and for #1 well i still don't get why you would need a second coach to relay information when the 1st coach can just driectly communicate the order directly to the drive team. Is there an advantage to going through channels to find out information as opposed to getting it directly? If you said maybe give them a scorekeeping job for the team than i'd start to agree with you but i doubt it only b/c its hard to watch 3 active goals & be able to keep up with the flow of the match.

[Scion13]

I don't think that the game requires two coaches; one can handle the job by himself. Any extra, unnecessary people in the booth would just cause confusion. You also run into the very real possibility of conflicting orders.
Another thing I don't understand is why the coach, alone out of all of the drive team, is allowed to be an adult. It's mandatory for high school students to do all the other jobs. Does FIRST not think that we can handle it? I think that the entire drive team should be students. The goal of FIRST is to promote science and technology to students, not engineers.

[jgannon]

Ah, this thread is back again. When I saw the "statistician" in the kickoff video, I thought this meant another member on the drive team. Directing drivers, keeping track of what has actually been scored (particularly on the side of the rack that you can't really see), and yelling over to the other coaches to keep things coordinated will be a much heftier coaching task than in years past. It's similar to 2005 in this respect, but keeping track of the current state of the game takes more than just a glance. I'd welcome another team member in the box.

[Pavan Dave]

I think this could be useful but not necessary. I think that instead of the Coach having to be really good at mental math, you could have a math guy as the second coach and be used as a statistician and help us choose where we wanted to place which ringer or spoiler for us to win the match. It is not necessary but it would definitely be useful and I doubt that any team would complain if they added it back.

Pavan.

[Ian S.]

I think the idea of a statistician other than a coach might not be a bad idea like they hinted on the kickoff video, but having 6 drivers, 3 coaches, and 3 more strategists/coaches in one small alliance zone might be a bit too crowded.

Having the option of 2 coaches I think would be the best idea. High school students should also be allowed to coach, not just s.

[cire]

We never really used a coach until our last 4 matchs this season, last year we didnt use our coach at all except for bringing the cart to the end of the field. I guess it made it alot harder on the drivers (me), cause it was nice when we got a new coach for our last 4 matchs.