The ultimate game breaker bot.

[jvriezen]

Originally Posted by JesseK

This would only be able to be done with a PASSIVE mechanism. The balls fall on top of the robot, implying that it falls above the bumper zone.



It would depend on the definition of 'active' as to whether or not you could change the direction the ball went in (i.e. is the mechanism passive if it is in place and not moving when the ball hits it?)

What if the robot inverted itself as it climbed the tower, so that its bottom was facing up? Then ACTIVE mechanisms (bot not POSSESSING mechanisms) could be used to swat the ball or alter ball deflection surfaces toward one goal or another.

[Taylor]

I believe a robot like this, if ruled to be legal, would do extremely well in Week 1 or 2 regionals; probably even win a couple design awards as well.
That being said, come weeks 3-5, teams will have developed counter-strategies and this design will become as much a hindrance to its alliance as a help. Certainly come Championship time, this strategy will be nearly obsolete.
The challenge in utilizing this design lies in staying one step ahead of the competition. What strategies will combat this design; what can you do to counter those strategies?
As I said before, adaptability is king in this game. It will be highly strategic, possibly the most FIRST has developed. The teams that do the best work between the ears will be the champions.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Taylor

I believe a robot like this, if ruled to be legal, would do extremely well in Week 1 or 2 regionals; probably even win a couple design awards as well.
That being said, come weeks 3-5, teams will have developed counter-strategies and this design will become as much a hindrance to its alliance as a help. Certainly come Championship time, this strategy will be nearly obsolete.
The challenge in utilizing this design lies in staying one step ahead of the competition. What strategies will combat this design; what can you do to counter those strategies?
As I said before, adaptability is king in this game. It will be highly strategic, possibly the most FIRST has developed. The teams that do the best work between the ears will be the champions.

Weeks 3-5?!? ... try Week 1 Thursday Noon. If a robot displays this type of capability it will surely recieve enough attention and counter strategy.

I do not however see this as the ultimate game breaker bot as I see many counter strategies to it:
Defense before it latches on to the tower -- this will make it very difficult to line up and attach.
Defense once it attaches to the tower -- Probably will happen and is the most likely to damage the robot (which I am against, but y'all are putting yourself in a vulnerable position. Build it robust).
Ball denial -- Once you are up, it's 3 vs 2 against your alliance partners, and unless you are perfect in scoring the opponents will control more balls than you as the match progresses.


... And this is all dependent on your design being legal (The only issue I see is the definition of active MECHINISM with the ball redirect).


Personally, I like the strategy but I find if very restictive and ultimately defendable once someone knows you have that capability.

JMHO

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Taylor

I believe a robot like this, if ruled to be legal, would do extremely well in Week 1 or 2 regionals; probably even win a couple design awards as well.
That being said, come weeks 3-5, teams will have developed counter-strategies and this design will become as much a hindrance to its alliance as a help. Certainly come Championship time, this strategy will be nearly obsolete.
The challenge in utilizing this design lies in staying one step ahead of the competition. What strategies will combat this design; what can you do to counter those strategies?
As I said before, adaptability is king in this game. It will be highly strategic, possibly the most FIRST has developed. The teams that do the best work between the ears will be the champions.

I'm just saying, but please build this robot and compete against me with it. I'm assuming whomever builds it gets it to work perfectly in Week 1. Please build it and let me play against it. It requires a low scoring match but it can be beaten. Trust me.

And it's way easier to win 3 on 2 than it is 3 on 3.

[hschase]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Nevermind, I misunderstood.

Regardless, you have to get your robot to hang from the sides, extend a big lexan plate (which people are free to push), and play 3 on 2 on the ground... when your opponents could hoard balls in their zone and score them all in the last minute or so.

except only one robot from the opposing alliance can be in your scoring zone anyway so it isn't really three on 2

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by hschase

except only one robot from the opposing alliance can be in your scoring zone anyway so it isn't really three on 2

Well, if you have both of your teammates in the scoring zone, all the opposing alliiance has to do is get all of the balls into its scoring zone and not score them. If you have one scorer and one defender, then I can pin the defender between two of the three robots and generally just stall, scoring everything in the last 30 seconds. Neither of us will get good RP, but you'll lose the match.

This is assuming the hanging robot works perfectly.

[Cyberphil]

The problem I see with this design is what happens when your opponent holds the majority of the balls? If they are doing the same thing then you loose. Also, the time that it takes the balls to get scored, passed to the middle human player, and roll down the chute might not make this worth it. With all of that wasted time you can try to posses the balls that the other team has. Why wouldn't you just build a robot that could just do that from the ground? Then, when there is free time you could try to posses more balls and possibly score more and get balls from both sides of the field. I feel that it would be a waste of time, although it is a good idea.

[PerpetualMotion]

If the robot could only direct the balls in one, fixed direction, it may be legal, but I think any mechanism that could change the direction of the ball would be considered active and would thus be illegal. However, lets assume it is legal...

Seems like it would be very easy to defend. As any goalie knows (hockey, soccer, ect), the further you come out of the net, the more you cut down the angle, and the less the opponent has to score in. The issue with this in most situations is that if the opponent gets around you, they have an open net to score in.

Since the robot in this strategy is unable to move, there is no concern with it getting around the defender. All the defender has to do is get very close to the robot deflecting the balls.

Also, this strategy assumes your alliance scores a ball to get it in the system. It's bad practice to assume anything, especially in FIRST.

This would also leave your team playing 2 vs 3. Once the defending robot has successful cut off your supply (assuming a ball gets scored), all it needs to do is clear the zone of remaining balls and pin whatever robot is in the zone. The game has now become 1 vs 2 with no balls in your zone... good luck

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Well, if you have both of your teammates in the scoring zone, all the opposing alliiance has to do is get all of the balls into its scoring zone and not score them. If you have one scorer and one defender, then I can pin the defender between two of the three robots and generally just stall, scoring everything in the last 30 seconds. Neither of us will get good RP, but you'll lose the match.

This is assuming the hanging robot works perfectly.

It's not impossible to un-hang (harder, but not impossible).

I don't see the big deal with them not scoring. I doubt a ball has enough oomph to be directed from your opponents RETURN to your alliance's scoring zone. I'm much more comfortable with the idea a robot can hang in front of it's own RETURN making balls their alliance score go straight back into their zone.

I think it will be a non-trivial task to score multiple balls in a short amount of time, even if they are all floating around in your zone.

Ideally, this robot will hang in autonomous, so their really isn't any defensive strategy for it. The other alliance just need a really skilled defensive bot to kick the balls out as soon as they come rolling off the chute into your scoring zone.

I'll bet a cookie that 190 is building this exact robot (probably with the ability to suspend the rest of their alliance too), so hopefully we'll see how it fairs!*

*Based exclusively on the fact that this is the coolest, strategically most interesting robot I can think of.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Defense once it attaches to the tower -- Probably will happen and is the most likely to damage the robot (which I am against, but y'all are putting yourself in a vulnerable position. Build it robust).

I'm calling this defense strategy a bad idea. Strategies intended solely for tipping, disabling, or damaging opponents are illegal and disqualifying.

If a robot has hung and rigidly attached itself to a field element, and your first bumps/taps aren't enough to dislodge it, then you should stop trying, because the only way that you can stop it is by physically destroying the robot's latching mechanism. I'll readily allow that it's acceptable if the mechanism is fragile enough to break under reasonable interaction. But I don't think a team attempting this strategy should be forced to design systems that are proof against a 6-motor, high torque shove-bot just because the other team can't figure out anything more creative than "push it till it breaks."

[M. Mellott]

The goal of this strategy is not to direct a returning ball into the goal every time--I don't think there will be enough energy in the ball to do that (since the only energy that can be on said ball is gravity). The goal is to direct a returning ball towards a goal, where a partner (already working against the goalie to score goals) can quickly stuff the ball into the goal...and start the process all over again. That sounds like 2 on 1 to me in my team's favor.

Also remember, if you're using a robot to keep me off the tower, you're no longer trying to score, which now makes it a 2 on 2 game, right?

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I'm calling this defense strategy a bad idea. Strategies intended solely for tipping, disabling, or damaging opponents are illegal and disqualifying.

If a robot has hung and rigidly attached itself to a field element, and your first bumps/taps aren't enough to dislodge it, then you should stop trying, because the only way that you can stop it is by physically destroying the robot's latching mechanism. I'll readily allow that it's acceptable if the mechanism is fragile enough to break under reasonable interaction. But I don't think a team attempting this strategy should be forced to design systems that are proof against a 6-motor, high torque shove-bot just because the other team can't figure out anything more creative than "push it till it breaks."

Kevin,

I completely agree with you ... hence my quote in the parentheses and my warning to build it robust.

[Jared Russell]

You build a robot to deflect returned balls directly into your zone, and I'll build a robot that sits right in front of your deflector to kick your returned balls into my zone.

[bobmonkey836]

1: due to rule <g28>, you get penalized for COMPLETELY crossing the center line in autonomous. this means you *could* use sensors (line reader?) to line up with the tower, latch onto it, and possibly start climbing in autonomous mode. the only real defense at that point is dead reckoning to sit in front of the tower right away and block it.

2: assuming this would be allowed, use some of that memory foam to help prevent the ball from bouncing off the back of the robot, and then let it slope.

3: i personally think this is not that great of a plan, unless it's actually meant to do that for end game purposes. as it, have some other abilities, then at the end, climb up, and get an extra couple of points in those last seconds. just don't build it with this being your whole game plan.

[Bomberofdoom]

Lol, when did you come up with this idea? I first thought about it on Sunday, when we were brainstorming about the hanging from the tower. The idea is unrealistic, I'm afraid. Maybe you could block the balls and make them fall to the platform and (hopefully) roll a bit towards the near zone.