Defense robots for 2010 game..

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by wendells

The game is too short for defence, we will be able to neutralize any robot that wants to play goalkeeper. I feel kicking the soccer ball is key to the match AND TEAM 2185 is developing a kicker that will make David Beckam look like a chump.
I think that that people that are not familar with the game of soccer should get a few DVD's on soccer and watch different matches so they could better understand how to play the game.
Team 2185 will be coming with an attack bot!

wendells
School Soccer Coach

Who said that defense had to be playing 'goalkeeper'?

Most defense is played by having great middies.

[theun4gven]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Who said that defense had to be playing 'goalkeeper'?

Most defense is played by having great middies.

My thoughts exactly. It's tough to score when you never have the ball.

[Jones571]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Who said that defense had to be playing 'goalkeeper'?

Most defense is played by having great middies.

agreed you need a fast agile and powerful middie to act as the arbiter of the match. Only giving your opponent the balls you want them to have to increase your seeding points.

[labrat_one]

Looks like ChiefDelphi has become BigSoccer.

Overloading the scoring zone with the balls is the simplest idea to win by scoring big.

Each elimination match will be won/lost in midfield, as the balls are returned the ability to get the balls into your scoring area reliably will be key.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Who said that defense had to be playing 'goalkeeper'?

Most defense is played by having great middies.

True, but there is no off sides in this game.

[Wayne TenBrink]

The best (only?) place for a defense robot in this game is in your opponent's zone. Their job will be to get the ball out of the zone and slow down the offense bot(s) - not block shots. A robot playing defense anywhere else is just chasing other robots around and not moving balls toward its scoring zone.

I think the key to the game will be to minimize the total tact time between when you choose to go after a ball and when you have moved it toward the goal. This means a quick chassis, wide "ball magnet", ability to turn downfield without loosing control of the ball, and a quick-cycle kicker with repeatable accuracy that will clear at least one bump all the time (for a score hopefully), and not kick it so hard that it bounces out of the goal. Adjustable kick force will be helpful.

Perhaps more than ever, a good offense bot can handle the necessary defense, but not the other way around.

My $.02

[thefro526]

I have a very strong opinion on defensive robots, which I've developed from my time in FIRST in different levels and capacities.

Personally, I would never "build" a robot to play defense. I've found that it's far too risky, because should you be paired with two other defensive robots then you no longer have the ability to score any points. (arguably) More often than not, a capable offensive robot in any game has been able to play effective defense, whether this be through interference, pinning, or some other game specific strategy.

And also, looking at this game, there's no real defensive strategies that require any specialized robot features, with the exception of a strong drive base and capable "kicker" and both of these belong on a good offensive robot in my opinion. When I think of a good defensive robot this year, I think of a machine that plays the role of an on-field ball returner so to say. This machine would go up against your opponents and starve them of their ball supply while also feeding yours. I really don't think playing goalie will be an effective way of defending this year, because once you block one goal an opponent could just use the other to score on.

Finally, I think a lot of alliances will find themselves playing their best defender in the midfield. I can foresee a lot of fighting over the balls coming from the ball return.

[Tim Delles]

Here is my 2 cents on the game in general (and yes I will touch on the defensive robot).

Personally I would love to see an alliance that is composed of 1 defensive robot, 1 hybrid robot (meaning it can play the middle and offensive zone) and 1 offensive robot.

Purpose of each robot and what they will be doing.

Offensive Robot - This is a strictly scoring robot. There entire strategy is about putting points on the board and putting them up fast. They never leave the offensive zone unless they have to in order to collect balls.

Hybrid Robot - This robot plays both the striker (offensive) and mid position. The primary roll of this robot is to score, but when there are few balls in the offensive zone, it is this robots responsibility to move the balls in the mid zone into the offensive area.

Defensive - This robot is all about getting balls out of the offensive zone, and being a pure power house. They will be able to "kick" the ball at least to the mid zone, and good ones will be able to get it into their offensive zone so that their alliance partners never need to come out to collect balls.

As for the drive system I would see a defensive robot have either crab or mecanum. I believe that defense this year isn't about shoving people around and what not, its simply getting in their way, knocking the ball away from them, and keeping balls out of your defensive zone, and being able to move around freely and not being trapped yourself.



Good luck to all, and remember this is just what I think will happen.

[Kevin Sevcik]

So to finally get around to responding to the replies to my post...

I had a specific reason for being concerned about pushing bots up the BUMP. I think you'd have two things to worry about:
1. A non bump bot is not going to have the ground clearance to make it over or up the bump. You're risking damaging the field and bot by shoving transmissions and whatnot over the corner of the bump.
2. The BUMP is rather closer to being a wall than a floor. I haven't gotten to try it yet, but I'm worried about pushing someone sideways into the bump. If their wheels stick at the corner, the pushing bot could end up putting a significant side load on wheels that might not be designed for it.

So yeah. Hurrah for shoving people around in new and interesting fashions, but be careful doing so.

[Tetraman]

Just getting the balls away from opponents is the best defense. Find all the loose balls and push them closer to your zone. The more your opponent has to "fight" for a ball, the harder it will be for them to make a score. This is why the midzone is critical, and how the robots "tip-off" for the incoming balls is going to make a huge difference.

Also, just thinking about how many scratches and scrapes the bumps are going to get makes my inner field personal weep ;;

[Jones571]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

So to finally get around to responding to the replies to my post...

I had a specific reason for being concerned about pushing bots up the BUMP. I think you'd have two things to worry about:
1. A non bump bot is not going to have the ground clearance to make it over or up the bump. You're risking damaging the field and bot by shoving transmissions and whatnot over the corner of the bump.

Looking at G26 I would say each robot should be designed so it will not damage a field element even if it has no intentions of going over the ramp. I don't see it being the pushers fault.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by labrat_one

Looks like ChiefDelphi has become BigSoccer.

I hope CD never stoops that low. We are much more gracious here.

[IBdrummer]

The most important part of a robot design on defense is a drive train. That has typically been true in other years such as 06' and 07' and this year could be very similar. Without a fast enough or strong enough bot you will not be able to control an opponent or position, but at the same time you don't have to necessarily compromise your offensive power for defensive capabilities.

With a solid drive train, a decent kicker (with average range and accuracy) and height to block angled kicks I can't see robots being a bad fit for defense. The more you improve on these factors the better you'll be at offense and defense and the more valuable your bot will be.

In the end, defense is mostly reliant on driver ability and strategy. Give a solid base to a good driver and he can cause an offensive player a lot of trouble.

[Koko Ed]

I just hope teams don't take a que from 2007 and interpret defense as permission to be hockey goons and start wrecking people.
I'm sure I'll see it at lest once in the early weeks where a team will knock foolishly attack a robot in the endgame and knock them off the bar because we know how diligently teams read and follow the rules in the manual.

[C_Shepherd 1742]

A good defensive robot would be one with a solid drive platform with alot of torque, swerve or tank drives serve this purpose nicely, and all it has to do is successfully muscle around one other robot. This would force another robot to enter the zone to score which leaves either their defence or the mid field zones open, causing a flurry of scoring by your alliance. We are also missing a vital point here, a defensive robot would be very useful to powerhouse teams focusing on offence in the elims, therefore it doesnt matter if they are an alliance captain or not, assuming they are good at what they do. One idea would be for a team to build a defensive robot that had the capability to quickly lift both its alliance partners in the FINALE; 8 points would definately outscore what most offensive robots could do in 20 seconds.