Go to Post Just be yourself, be honest, and most importantly, be present. The best role models are the ones you can relate to. - Jessica Boucher [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 4 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2010, 08:42
Daniel_LaFleur's Avatar
Daniel_LaFleur Daniel_LaFleur is offline
Mad Scientist
AKA: Me
FRC #2040 (DERT)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 1,976
Daniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Daniel_LaFleur
Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..

Quote:
Originally Posted by wendells View Post
The game is too short for defence, we will be able to neutralize any robot that wants to play goalkeeper. I feel kicking the soccer ball is key to the match AND TEAM 2185 is developing a kicker that will make David Beckam look like a chump.
I think that that people that are not familar with the game of soccer should get a few DVD's on soccer and watch different matches so they could better understand how to play the game.
Team 2185 will be coming with an attack bot!

wendells
School Soccer Coach
Who said that defense had to be playing 'goalkeeper'?

Most defense is played by having great middies.
__________________
___________________
"We are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. "
- Tennyson, Ulysses
Reply With Quote
  #32   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2010, 08:53
theun4gven theun4gven is offline
What time is it?
AKA: Tom Filipek
FRC #0079 (Team Krunch)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 24
theun4gven is just really nicetheun4gven is just really nicetheun4gven is just really nicetheun4gven is just really nicetheun4gven is just really nice
Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
Who said that defense had to be playing 'goalkeeper'?

Most defense is played by having great middies.
My thoughts exactly. It's tough to score when you never have the ball.
__________________
Team 79 - Krunch
Reply With Quote
  #33   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2010, 09:08
Jones571's Avatar
Jones571 Jones571 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Corey
FRC #0571 (Paragon)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Windsor,CT
Posts: 462
Jones571 has much to be proud ofJones571 has much to be proud ofJones571 has much to be proud ofJones571 has much to be proud ofJones571 has much to be proud ofJones571 has much to be proud ofJones571 has much to be proud ofJones571 has much to be proud ofJones571 has much to be proud of
Send a message via AIM to Jones571
Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
Who said that defense had to be playing 'goalkeeper'?

Most defense is played by having great middies.
agreed you need a fast agile and powerful middie to act as the arbiter of the match. Only giving your opponent the balls you want them to have to increase your seeding points.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #34   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2010, 10:27
labrat_one labrat_one is offline
Registered User
FRC #1748 (Lab Rats)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Baltimore,MD
Posts: 2
labrat_one is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..

Looks like ChiefDelphi has become BigSoccer.

Overloading the scoring zone with the balls is the simplest idea to win by scoring big.

Each elimination match will be won/lost in midfield, as the balls are returned the ability to get the balls into your scoring area reliably will be key.
Reply With Quote
  #35   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2010, 11:43
IndySam's Avatar
IndySam IndySam is offline
Registered User
FRC #0829 (Digital Goats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Indy
Posts: 3,362
IndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
Who said that defense had to be playing 'goalkeeper'?

Most defense is played by having great middies.
True, but there is no off sides in this game.
__________________
"Champions are champions not because they do anything extraordinary but because they do the ordinary things better than anyone else." —Chuck Knoll


2015 Indianapolis District Winner
2014 Boilermaker Regional Industrial Design Award
2013 Smoky Mountain Regional Industrial Design Award
2012 Boilermaker Engineering Excellence Award
2010 Boilermaker Rockwell Innovation in Control Award.
2009 Buckeye J&J Gracious Professionalism Award
2009 Boilermaker J&J Gracious Professionalism Award
2008 Boilermaker J&J Gracious Professionalism Award
2007 St Louis Regional Winners

Last edited by IndySam : 19-01-2010 at 12:46. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote
  #36   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2010, 12:41
Wayne TenBrink's Avatar
Wayne TenBrink Wayne TenBrink is offline
<< (2008 Game Piece)
FRC #1918 (NC Gears)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Fremont, MI, USA
Posts: 528
Wayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..

The best (only?) place for a defense robot in this game is in your opponent's zone. Their job will be to get the ball out of the zone and slow down the offense bot(s) - not block shots. A robot playing defense anywhere else is just chasing other robots around and not moving balls toward its scoring zone.

I think the key to the game will be to minimize the total tact time between when you choose to go after a ball and when you have moved it toward the goal. This means a quick chassis, wide "ball magnet", ability to turn downfield without loosing control of the ball, and a quick-cycle kicker with repeatable accuracy that will clear at least one bump all the time (for a score hopefully), and not kick it so hard that it bounces out of the goal. Adjustable kick force will be helpful.

Perhaps more than ever, a good offense bot can handle the necessary defense, but not the other way around.

My $.02
__________________
NC Gears (Newaygo County Geeks Engineering Awesome Robotic Solutions)

FRC 1918 (Competing at St. Joseph and West MI in 2017)
FTC 6043 & 7911
Reply With Quote
  #37   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2010, 13:25
thefro526's Avatar
thefro526 thefro526 is offline
Mentor for Hire.
AKA: Dustin Benedict
no team (EWCP, MAR, FRC 708)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 2,599
thefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to thefro526 Send a message via MSN to thefro526
Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..

I have a very strong opinion on defensive robots, which I've developed from my time in FIRST in different levels and capacities.

Personally, I would never "build" a robot to play defense. I've found that it's far too risky, because should you be paired with two other defensive robots then you no longer have the ability to score any points. (arguably) More often than not, a capable offensive robot in any game has been able to play effective defense, whether this be through interference, pinning, or some other game specific strategy.

And also, looking at this game, there's no real defensive strategies that require any specialized robot features, with the exception of a strong drive base and capable "kicker" and both of these belong on a good offensive robot in my opinion. When I think of a good defensive robot this year, I think of a machine that plays the role of an on-field ball returner so to say. This machine would go up against your opponents and starve them of their ball supply while also feeding yours. I really don't think playing goalie will be an effective way of defending this year, because once you block one goal an opponent could just use the other to score on.

Finally, I think a lot of alliances will find themselves playing their best defender in the midfield. I can foresee a lot of fighting over the balls coming from the ball return.
__________________
-Dustin Benedict
2005-2012 - Student & Mentor FRC 816
2012-2014 - Technical Mentor, 2014 Drive Coach FRC 341
Current - Mentor FRC 2729, FRC 708
Reply With Quote
  #38   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2010, 13:34
Tim Delles's Avatar
Tim Delles Tim Delles is offline
Since 2001.
FRC #0078
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 1,002
Tim Delles has a reputation beyond reputeTim Delles has a reputation beyond reputeTim Delles has a reputation beyond reputeTim Delles has a reputation beyond reputeTim Delles has a reputation beyond reputeTim Delles has a reputation beyond reputeTim Delles has a reputation beyond reputeTim Delles has a reputation beyond reputeTim Delles has a reputation beyond reputeTim Delles has a reputation beyond reputeTim Delles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..

Here is my 2 cents on the game in general (and yes I will touch on the defensive robot).

Personally I would love to see an alliance that is composed of 1 defensive robot, 1 hybrid robot (meaning it can play the middle and offensive zone) and 1 offensive robot.

Purpose of each robot and what they will be doing.

Offensive Robot - This is a strictly scoring robot. There entire strategy is about putting points on the board and putting them up fast. They never leave the offensive zone unless they have to in order to collect balls.

Hybrid Robot - This robot plays both the striker (offensive) and mid position. The primary roll of this robot is to score, but when there are few balls in the offensive zone, it is this robots responsibility to move the balls in the mid zone into the offensive area.

Defensive - This robot is all about getting balls out of the offensive zone, and being a pure power house. They will be able to "kick" the ball at least to the mid zone, and good ones will be able to get it into their offensive zone so that their alliance partners never need to come out to collect balls.

As for the drive system I would see a defensive robot have either crab or mecanum. I believe that defense this year isn't about shoving people around and what not, its simply getting in their way, knocking the ball away from them, and keeping balls out of your defensive zone, and being able to move around freely and not being trapped yourself.



Good luck to all, and remember this is just what I think will happen.
__________________
Timothy Delles - Clarkson University
2011 - Present: FRC Team 78 - AIR Strike
2011 - Present: VEX Team 78 - AIR Strike
2010 - 2011: FRC Team 3280 - Rhode Rebels
2001 - 2009: FRC Team 229 - Division By Zero
Reply With Quote
  #39   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2010, 14:38
Kevin Sevcik's Avatar
Kevin Sevcik Kevin Sevcik is offline
(Insert witty comment here)
FRC #0057 (The Leopards)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,731
Kevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Kevin Sevcik Send a message via Yahoo to Kevin Sevcik
Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..

So to finally get around to responding to the replies to my post...

I had a specific reason for being concerned about pushing bots up the BUMP. I think you'd have two things to worry about:
1. A non bump bot is not going to have the ground clearance to make it over or up the bump. You're risking damaging the field and bot by shoving transmissions and whatnot over the corner of the bump.
2. The BUMP is rather closer to being a wall than a floor. I haven't gotten to try it yet, but I'm worried about pushing someone sideways into the bump. If their wheels stick at the corner, the pushing bot could end up putting a significant side load on wheels that might not be designed for it.

So yeah. Hurrah for shoving people around in new and interesting fashions, but be careful doing so.
__________________
The difficult we do today; the impossible we do tomorrow. Miracles by appointment only.

Lone Star Regional Troubleshooter
Reply With Quote
  #40   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2010, 14:49
Tetraman's Avatar
Tetraman Tetraman is offline
FIRST on my mind
AKA: Evan Raitt
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 1,322
Tetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..

Just getting the balls away from opponents is the best defense. Find all the loose balls and push them closer to your zone. The more your opponent has to "fight" for a ball, the harder it will be for them to make a score. This is why the midzone is critical, and how the robots "tip-off" for the incoming balls is going to make a huge difference.

Also, just thinking about how many scratches and scrapes the bumps are going to get makes my inner field personal weep ;;
__________________
"For every great theory about design, there is a better and contradictory theory about design. And don't let the irony of that escape you."
Reply With Quote
  #41   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2010, 15:05
Jones571's Avatar
Jones571 Jones571 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Corey
FRC #0571 (Paragon)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Windsor,CT
Posts: 462
Jones571 has much to be proud ofJones571 has much to be proud ofJones571 has much to be proud ofJones571 has much to be proud ofJones571 has much to be proud ofJones571 has much to be proud ofJones571 has much to be proud ofJones571 has much to be proud ofJones571 has much to be proud of
Send a message via AIM to Jones571
Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik View Post
So to finally get around to responding to the replies to my post...

I had a specific reason for being concerned about pushing bots up the BUMP. I think you'd have two things to worry about:
1. A non bump bot is not going to have the ground clearance to make it over or up the bump. You're risking damaging the field and bot by shoving transmissions and whatnot over the corner of the bump.
Looking at G26 I would say each robot should be designed so it will not damage a field element even if it has no intentions of going over the ramp. I don't see it being the pushers fault.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #42   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2010, 15:34
GaryVoshol's Avatar
GaryVoshol GaryVoshol is offline
Cogito ergo arbitro
no team
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Royal Oak, MI
Posts: 5,757
GaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..

Quote:
Originally Posted by labrat_one View Post
Looks like ChiefDelphi has become BigSoccer.
I hope CD never stoops that low. We are much more gracious here.
__________________
(since 2004)
Reply With Quote
  #43   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2010, 16:23
IBdrummer's Avatar
IBdrummer IBdrummer is offline
Registered User
AKA: Beau Muniz
FRC #5492 (Winners Circle Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 92
IBdrummer is a glorious beacon of lightIBdrummer is a glorious beacon of lightIBdrummer is a glorious beacon of lightIBdrummer is a glorious beacon of lightIBdrummer is a glorious beacon of lightIBdrummer is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..

The most important part of a robot design on defense is a drive train. That has typically been true in other years such as 06' and 07' and this year could be very similar. Without a fast enough or strong enough bot you will not be able to control an opponent or position, but at the same time you don't have to necessarily compromise your offensive power for defensive capabilities.

With a solid drive train, a decent kicker (with average range and accuracy) and height to block angled kicks I can't see robots being a bad fit for defense. The more you improve on these factors the better you'll be at offense and defense and the more valuable your bot will be.

In the end, defense is mostly reliant on driver ability and strategy. Give a solid base to a good driver and he can cause an offensive player a lot of trouble.
Reply With Quote
  #44   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2010, 17:30
Koko Ed's Avatar
Koko Ed Koko Ed is offline
Serial Volunteer
AKA: Ed Patterson
FRC #0191 (X-Cats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Rochester,NY
Posts: 22,945
Koko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..

I just hope teams don't take a que from 2007 and interpret defense as permission to be hockey goons and start wrecking people.
I'm sure I'll see it at lest once in the early weeks where a team will knock foolishly attack a robot in the endgame and knock them off the bar because we know how diligently teams read and follow the rules in the manual.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #45   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-01-2010, 22:28
C_Shepherd 1742 C_Shepherd 1742 is offline
Shockwave Team Memeber
AKA: Clint
FRC #1742 (Shockwave)
Team Role: Student
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Moore Oklahoma
Posts: 1
C_Shepherd 1742 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..

A good defensive robot would be one with a solid drive platform with alot of torque, swerve or tank drives serve this purpose nicely, and all it has to do is successfully muscle around one other robot. This would force another robot to enter the zone to score which leaves either their defence or the mid field zones open, causing a flurry of scoring by your alliance. We are also missing a vital point here, a defensive robot would be very useful to powerhouse teams focusing on offence in the elims, therefore it doesnt matter if they are an alliance captain or not, assuming they are good at what they do. One idea would be for a team to build a defensive robot that had the capability to quickly lift both its alliance partners in the FINALE; 8 points would definately outscore what most offensive robots could do in 20 seconds.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[FTC]: FTC Game Platform for 2009-2010 Rick TYler FIRST Tech Challenge 30 27-04-2009 20:17
Fans for defense mikekim Rules/Strategy 31 03-04-2009 16:15
Is Defense key to this game? Swampdude Rules/Strategy 106 22-03-2007 08:12
Looking for a rule - No defense on robots without tubes Don Wright Rules/Strategy 53 12-03-2007 14:18
end game defense Gary Dillard Rules/Strategy 53 01-03-2007 11:14


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:14.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi