Frame design question

[team1631]

We are having a debate about our frame design. Could someone give us some input. We are wanting to create a 3 inch lip on the front of the frame and then attache the bumper giving a total of six inches. The lip would not constrain the balls movement. I am saying the frame has to be flat on all sides but others say the design is ok because it does not constrain the balls movement and is inside the frame perimeter. Thanks for any insight.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by team1631

I am saying the frame has to be flat on all sides

Can you support this with a rule?

If the bumpers will be attached to the lip of the frame and the lipped part still fits within the 28x38 footprint I see no rules that would restrict such a configuration.

[BrendanB]

I would suggest that you continue the lower part of the frame all the way to the front of the robot and have an opening in the front to allow for balls to come in. That way balls won't slip out underneath the sides of your robot/bumper perimeter like you do now.

Good luck!

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by team1631

The lip would not constrain the balls movement.

Why wouldn't you want it to help hold the ball?

And to lend you insight, read rule <R19> and the associated diagram. assuming your "lip" does not allow the ball more than 3" under the FRAME PERIMETER, I see no issues.

Be sure to understand the difference between FRAME PERIMETER and BUMPER PERIMETER.

Also, look at <G30> part A in regard to the "ball hitting device" mechanism.

[team1631]

We were interpreting the rules as no corralling or holding the ball. Maybe we are reading to much into the possession rule. It would be better if we could put sides on the frame to keep the ball from sliding out.

POSSESSION: Controlling the position and movement of a BALL. A BALL shall be considered in POSSESSION if, as the ROBOT moves or changes orientation (e.g. backs up or spins in place), the BALL remains in approximately the same position relative to the ROBOT.

[Matt C]

POSSESSION is legal. (albeit one ball at a time)

CARRYING is not.

CARRYING is POSSESSION not in contact with the field.

So as long as your are not lifting up the ball...

Refer to rules <G43> and <G44>

[team1631]

cool thanks.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Team,
If your design is a way to massage the 3" intrusion rule consider that the attachment for the bumpers is the edge of the 3" rule. You can make the shape of the robot under the bumpers whatever way you want, but you will be called if in the opinion of the refs, a ball enters more than 3" beyond the frame perimeter. The drawings in the manual R19 are very specific.

[Zanfardino2892]

POSSESSION: Controlling the position and movement of a BALL. A BALL shall be considered in POSSESSION if, as the ROBOT moves or changes orientation (e.g. backs up or spins in place), the BALL remains in approximately the same position relative to the ROBOT.

So is having multiple free spinning balls in front of your robot with general control of position illegal or would it be considered possession of multiple balls? Or are you not even allowed to intentionally go after multiple balls?

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Zanfardino2892

POSSESSION: Controlling the position and movement of a BALL. A BALL shall be considered in POSSESSION if, as the ROBOT moves or changes orientation (e.g. backs up or spins in place), the BALL remains in approximately the same position relative to the ROBOT.

So is having multiple free spinning balls in front of your robot with general control of position illegal or would it be considered possession of multiple balls? Or are you not even allowed to intentionally go after multiple balls?

If the balls are free spinning and not controlled by any mechanism on your robot they will not stay in the same position relative to the robot if you back up or turn your robot. When backing up the balls will stay in their same absolute position as your robot moves away, and when turning they will at there will be a relative movement across your robot sideways.

Based on this it would be legal to have multiple balls being pushed by your robot.

[Zanfardino2892]

what if the balls are3 only controlled or held by a light suction by either rollers or fans? then they'd still have a tendency to move with the robot but not truly held

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Zanfardino2892

what if the balls are3 only controlled or held by a light suction by either rollers or fans? then they'd still have a tendency to move with the robot but not truly held

The definition of POSSESSION is spelled out pretty clearly in the rule you quoted. A ball is either possessed or not, it can't be lightly possessed or sort of possessed.

If you back up and/or turn with a roller or suction the ball will probably stay in the same position relative to the robot (otherwise what is the point of using the device?) so it would be considered POSSESSED. You could only possess one ball at a time in this manner without receiving a penalty.

[Zanfardino2892]

ok. so controlling the tendency of a ball to roll toward a robot without grabbing onto the ball is that considered possession?

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by Zanfardino2892

what if the balls are3 only controlled or held by a light suction by either rollers or fans? then they'd still have a tendency to move with the robot but not truly held

You can only control one ball:
If you have a ball magnet/suction/roller/dark matter/whatever device that "held" or "controlled" balls and more than one ball enters it or touches it, I can almost guarantee you'll get a penalty.

[Zanfardino2892]

Ok. That's what I thought, thank you. You wouldn't happen to be a member of the Robovikes would you?