cylinder count

[windell747]

Does anyone know if there is a limit to how many storage cylinders we can use on the bot? This is just to reduce the load on the compressor and to keep the recharge times short.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by windell747

Does anyone know if there is a limit to how many storage cylinders we can use on the bot? This is just to reduce the load on the compressor and to keep the recharge times short.

Yes, there is. <R01-B> specifies no more than 4 of the Clippard tanks; <R72-A> repeats that.

[Matt H.]

Four storage tanks may be used see:
Section 8.3.1 <R01> B

Any number of pneumatic cylinders (with a piston) may be used.

[abross]

Is there a limit to how much tubing you can use? Because in theory, you can store air in large coils of tubing. A little impractical if you think about it considering the fact that you would need a lot and it would probably get in the way, but it would be interesting to try.

[MrForbes]

Did you read the rules?

(it's specifically prohibited)

[Joe Johnson]

Suppose you want to increase capacity. Are you allowed to have air cyclinder that act like accumulators? Sorry, for not having the rules ready to hand.

Joe J

[Al Skierkiewicz]

For starts...

<R01> Energy used by FRC ROBOTS, (i.e., stored at the start of a MATCH), shall come only from the following sources:
A. Electrical energy derived from the onboard 12V battery (see Rule <R40> for specifications and further details).
B. Compressed air stored in the pneumatic system, stored at a maximum pressure of 120 PSI in no more than four Clippard Instruments tanks. Extraneous lengths of pneumatic tubing shall not be used to increase the storage capacity of the air storage system.
C. A change in the altitude of the ROBOT center of gravity.
D. Storage achieved by deformation of ROBOT parts.

Followed by..
R72> In addition to the items included in the KOP, pneumatic system items specifically permitted on 2010 FRC ROBOTS include the following items...
A. One or two additional Clippard air storage tanks (Clippard Part Number AVT-32-16), equivalent to those provided in the kit. This means that up to four, and no more, Clippard air storage tanks can be used on the ROBOT.

And:
<R76> “Working” air pressure on the ROBOT must be no greater than 60psi. All working air must be provided through one primary Norgen adjustable pressure regulator.
A. All “working” pneumatic components (e.g. valves, cylinders, rotary actuators, etc.) must be downstream from this regulator.
B. Only the compressor, relief valve, pressure switch, pressure vent plug valve, pressure gauge, storage tanks, tubing, and connecting fittings may be in the high-pressure pneumatic circuit upstream from the regulator.

Yes Virginia, Inspectors know how much tubing is too much.

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

For starts...

<R01> Energy used by FRC ROBOTS, (i.e., stored at the start of a MATCH), shall come only from the following sources:
A. Electrical energy derived from the onboard 12V battery (see Rule <R40> for specifications and further details).
B. Compressed air stored in the pneumatic system, stored at a maximum pressure of 120 PSI in no more than four Clippard Instruments tanks. Extraneous lengths of pneumatic tubing shall not be used to increase the storage capacity of the air storage system.
C. A change in the altitude of the ROBOT center of gravity.
D. Storage achieved by deformation of ROBOT parts.

Followed by..
R72> In addition to the items included in the KOP, pneumatic system items specifically permitted on 2010 FRC ROBOTS include the following items...
A. One or two additional Clippard air storage tanks (Clippard Part Number AVT-32-16), equivalent to those provided in the kit. This means that up to four, and no more, Clippard air storage tanks can be used on the ROBOT.

And:
<R76> “Working” air pressure on the ROBOT must be no greater than 60psi. All working air must be provided through one primary Norgen adjustable pressure regulator.
A. All “working” pneumatic components (e.g. valves, cylinders, rotary actuators, etc.) must be downstream from this regulator.
B. Only the compressor, relief valve, pressure switch, pressure vent plug valve, pressure gauge, storage tanks, tubing, and connecting fittings may be in the high-pressure pneumatic circuit upstream from the regulator.

Yes Virginia, Inspectors know how much tubing is too much.

So if I understand it correctly, then we could use a large gas piston as a sort of accumulator, but only it has to be on the 60psi side of the regulator (not too big a deal, just half the energy). I haven't used pneumatics in years but I suppose that it is a way out if I need a bigger capacity than the 2 Clippards provide (and I have the weight to burn.)

Am I right?

Joe J.

[Ted Weisse]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

So if I understand it correctly, then we could use a large gas piston as a sort of accumulator, but only it has to be on the 60psi side of the regulator (not too big a deal, just half the energy). I haven't used pneumatics in years but I suppose that it is a way out if I need a bigger capacity than the 2 Clippards provide (and I have the weight to burn.)

Am I right?

Joe J.

A resource that you should take advantage of is the FIRST Q&A. Here is a link to your answer... http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=13842

So Yes you may.

ted yz

[Mark McLeod]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

I suppose that it is a way out if I need a bigger capacity than the 2 Clippards provide

4 Clippards

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Joe,
That first part relates to the only storage can be at 120psi in up to four of the tanks and no where else. Sorry.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Joe,
That first part relates to the only storage can be at 120psi in up to four of the tanks and no where else. Sorry.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=13842

Al, the linked Q&A shows that you can in fact store air in a cylinder on the downstream side of the regulator. You just have to do it after the start of the match. How you do that is up to you.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I believe there is a typo in that answer. R76B relates only to the high side pressure components.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

I believe there is a typo in that answer. R76B relates only to the high side pressure components.

I don't think so. What the GDC said was that under <R76-B>, any rod-locked cylinders used for storage must be downstream from the primary regulator. <R76-B> calls out what components are allowed to be in the high-pressure side, and states that those are the only ones. I don't see any cylinders in there.

<R76-A> states that cylinders must be downstream of the regulators.

So, under <R76> in general, if you do manage to figure out how to use a cylinder as a storage tank, it has to be downstream of the primary regulator.

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by abross

Is there a limit to how much tubing you can use? Because in theory, you can store air in large coils of tubing. A little impractical if you think about it considering the fact that you would need a lot and it would probably get in the way, but it would be interesting to try.

<R01> Energy used by FRC ROBOTS, (i.e., stored at the start of a MATCH), shall come only from the following sources:
A. Electrical energy derived from the onboard 12V battery (see Rule <R40> for specifications and further details).
B. Compressed air stored in the pneumatic system, stored at a maximum pressure of 120 PSI in no more than four Clippard Instruments tanks. Extraneous lengths of pneumatic tubing shall not be used to increase the storage capacity of the air storage system.
C. A change in the altitude of the ROBOT center of gravity.
D. Storage achieved by deformation of ROBOT parts.