KOP recieved 11 days late

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Pat Major

I don't think it will happen, I agree with Dave. I disagree that it is not worth talking about.

I am happy to see people writing about this topic and thinking about it. Imagine being on the GDC and taking so many aspects of the competition into account when designing the game and implementing it. I have absolutely no doubt that the challenges that teams face are taken into account each season.

I also think that many teams take a lot for granted - like being able to pick up their KOP at their kick off location without thinking a thing about it. There are teams who have to figure out how to get to the location to get their KOP or make arrangements with other teams to pick it up for them and get it to them. We've participated in helping with that before. Travel to a remote kick off that involves time, money, and transportation isn't always easy. International teams face that as well as other challenges, some of which are being talked about here in this thread. It's good for the members of the FRC community to have an opportunity to learn more and understand more about what it takes to make the program that we are passionate about available to teams.

I wish all the best to the team in Bosnia, Pat. Let me know if there is any way I can be of help to them or to you. Thank you and the team for supporting them in their effort this season. Rookies rock. Veterans rock. Veterans helping rookies totally rock.

Jane

[fordchrist675]

The fact that we have a team from Bosnia is such a leap forward in the past 5 years. But I think there needs to be a vast improvement in the reception of these new teams and the whole organization of how and when they receive their KOP and other essential materials

[a kenny03]

ok... now, we are probably right in the fact that this thread is utterly unimportant, but i guess we get to say our peace. that is what tis was made for...

if i remember correctly, the reason for a late shipment was because of customs, so that rules out any chance that it was the fault of the team. on that note, i do believe that they should be given an extension. what is so major about a team building when there is a competition going on? if a team has not created an idea by the start of the games(btw, i lost the game ) then they will not have a completed robot by the time they have to ship it, some few days later...(games start like the beginning of march...) a 11 day extension would give them until march 6th to be done... the team should be fairly colse to being done...

do not forget that this team has NO EXPERIENCE, NO MENTOR, NOTHING! any non-rookie team had almost 3 months to get used to the new control system. now, they lose 11 days working with those components, but also working with the classmate. we have been working about 9 or so days on that thing, and we are still having problems with that infernal contraption!

they are already at a defecit, and if they can still get their robot to their competition site on time, then i see no reason not to let them have the time they lost... it may not be design time lost, but there is more than just design. we were prototyping by like day 3 of the build.

last note:
you would think with dean's homework and the president supporting FIRST as well as the "DoD sponsorship" that somebody would let customs know that we would be shipping stuff to them and that they NEED it on time... i do believe that someone told Obama that there was a 6 week time limit on this project... or did we...?

[nitsua60]

Many have argued that they should not have the extension on the basis that 'the first week is for brainstorming anyway.' As a mentor of a recently-rookie team, I'd add that many rookie teams don't have the human capital to know how to effectively use that brainstorming time. Having my kids do things like the bench test and assembling an AM chassis were invaluable last year -- I would want any rookie team to have the same opportunity we did.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Nadav Zingerman

Actually, this problem is mostly unavoidable. Customs officers can't clear a shipment before it arrives, and the evaluation period can not be anticipated.

To be clear, that's exactly what I mean: FIRST could offer the opportunity to register and pay a month earlier, so FIRST can ship it a month earlier, so that it arrives at the port of entry a month earlier, so that customs has an extra month to do whatever they do to it, and eventually release it to you once they're satisfied. (If FIRST doesn't have an entire KOP on hand at that point, they can send the balance of your materials at a later date, even though those may arrive late.)

[BrendanB]

I would say that they should receive an extension of any wheres from 1-2 days at the most. Why? Because they are a rookie team. Yes they can read online about how to put together the gearboxes and frames and read all of the schematics for the control system, they still will not be able to build it/put it together in a couple of hours like some veteran teams. However, I don't think that they should receive a full 11 days. As like what was said before, the first two weeks are usually design only. How many of you teams were stuck in your first few weeks in your rookie season?

But being an international team does have its drawbacks, I'm sure that FIRST ships out the KoP's with enough time to make it to the teams and enough time for customs. They cannot control customs and therefore while competing internationally, expect delays like this. Consider it a side-affect of international FIRST, it is a risk that you are taking.

So 1-2 days to have it in the crate would be my inclination as they haven't lost too much time with the critical parts in the kit. If this were 2008 or 2009, then it would be difficult as the orbit balls and trackballs were critical when designing the robots.

Good luck!

[timytamy]

We are in Australia and we recived our kit ~5 days late. We however have had the grate fortune of having a Crio donated and our BAE sponsers pulling strings to get FIRST to ship of our KOP ~2 days early.

While they may not get 11 days of build time to build the robot I belive they should at least have extensions in all other aspects i.e. They should have an extensions to request replacment/extra parts.

What also needs to be considered is if the robot will get through US customs on time for the competition even if they don't get the extension.

Thanks,
timytamy

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

I suppose the biggest part of the difficulty is that the GDC doesnt want these teams to get their kit AHEAD of kickoff, lest a dishonest team open it, and learn something vital about the game (game piece, anyone?) and disclose it to the community on here, for example.

The GDC has absolutely nothing to do with the packing, scheduling, or shipping of the Kits. Don't blame them for this one.

-dave



.

[Rizner]

It would be nice if teams could pay extra for it to ship early. The game could still be kept secret if the extra money paid went into a lock mechanism (something that requires a code or combination to open) which isn't given until kickoff. To be sure no teams broke into their kit early, those that paid the extra fee would be required to bring the boxes back when they got to their regional (maybe even got some or all of the extra money they put in back and traded their 'locking' box for a regular kop box).

[dtengineering]

I reluctantly voted "no". The ship date is a common feature for all FRC teams, and... love it or hate it (usually I do both), is also constrained by the first week of competitions. Mostly, though, I voted "no" because one of the great things about FIRST is that it is very reliable, and very firm in enforcing rules.... and one of the great things about the FRC community is how it comes together to help teams work within those rules. As much as the inflexibility drives me nuts at times, it is reassuring to know that there are no "unimportant" rules.

I have to agree with Tristan, however, when he points out that the kits simply need to be shipped sooner to overseas competitors.

Crossing the Canada/US border is a breeze compared to what overseas teams face, but it is enough of a pain in the butt to give me great empathy for the challenges they face.

If we can trust hundreds of Michigan teams to "bag and tag", their robots, I'm sure we can trust dozens of overseas teams to "bag and tag" their KoP until kickoff if it arrives early.

Enforce the rule.... but fix the problem.

Jason

[Nadav Zingerman]

Originally Posted by timytamy

We are in Australia and we recived our kit ~5 days late. We however have had the grate fortune of having a Crio donated and our BAE sponsers pulling strings to get FIRST to ship of our KOP ~2 days early.

While they may not get 11 days of build time to build the robot I belive they should at least have extensions in all other aspects i.e. They should have an extensions to request replacment/extra parts.

What also needs to be considered is if the robot will get through US customs on time for the competition even if they don't get the extension.

Thanks,
timytamy

In all the years that the Israel Regional had existed, no robot has been held in customs on it's way to Championships, so I really think that won't be a problem.

[thefro526]

I try to refrain from commenting on how to tell FIRST to do things but, I really sympathize with the international teams on this one.

This year, should they receive an extension? No, I don't feel that they should because there are a bunch of international teams that have received kits late..

But, onto next year and every year after, I feel like every step should be taken to get them their KOP on time. Perhaps, in each country where a large cluster of teams is present (Brazil and Israel come to mind) there is a person who is in charge of the KOP's for the team in that country and is not allowed to ship them out or let teams pick them up until the day of Kick-off. This should, in theory, keep the delays to a minimum since the Kits would already be in the country.

In countries where there are single teams or a few teams, perhaps each team could have their kit shipped to them 2 weeks early with some sort of system like the "Bag and Tag system" or what have you...

I know it's not a perfect solution, but just a suggestion.

[IBdrummer]

Hopefully as more teams join internationally FIRST will have the ability to address these issues. I'm not sure how many teams are in Brazil or Israel, but maybe at some point FIRST could find a procedure for getting the KOP's to the country ahead of time and storing them somewhere until they can be released to teams. I like the idea of a locking mechanism, but either way I hope FIRST addresses the problem because it is a disadvantage that could be avoidable. Obviously there would be logistical and financial issues to consider, but I think that if enough teams were based in a region, it could be done.


Just a thought, I'm not completely up on the financial costs of international shipping or International Import Laws so I could very well be wrong.

Edit: Like what Dustin said ^^

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by IBdrummer

Just a thought, I'm not completely up on the financial costs of international shipping or International Import Laws so I could very well be wrong.

Well, but isn't this the point? How many of us know what it takes to get the KOPs shipped in a timely manner and guarantee that the teams receive them on time? I don't. I also don't work at FIRST and am not responsible for getting them to the teams, so I'm not going to say what FIRST should and should not do if I don't have my facts in order and know exactly what the procedure is and how that affects/impacts the delay for receiving the KOP.

We can vote in a poll as to what our opinion is, but how much of that vote is educated, knowledgeable, and based on facts - and how much of that is based on emotions?

I think the discussion is healthy but the poll won't work without sound information on which to base our votes. This has been a problem for a while now, and there have been rookie teams in other countries that have had to contend with receiving their KOP and sometimes, game pieces, late into the build season. One rookie team should not receive preferential treatment when others have had to contend with this same issue and have dealt with it and may have to continue to deal with it.

.02
Jane