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Unread 23-01-2010, 20:35
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Re: new festo valves

Corey has found them commercially available and corrected my error.

I believe past Festo valves were not a COTS item, but custom-made for FIRST. At least as I understand it, they were a special production run specifically for FIRST and they couldn't be purchased anywhere but through the special Festo FIRST site. That would bring them under Rule <R34>. However, it's certainly something that we could get a ruling on in the Q&A. It's possible, since they were donated by Festo, rather than contracted by FIRST, that FIRST treated the Festo valves as COTS.
I'll post the question to the Q&A.

Quote:
<R34> Parts custom-made for FIRST and provided to FRC teams in the Kit Of Parts for previous FRC competitions (e.g. 2006 FRC transmissions, custom-made motor couplers, custom sensor strips, FRC CMUcam II modules, etc.) may be used if the part is still functionally equivalent to the original condition and:

A. The part is now generally available as a COTS item from an accessible source, or

B. All information required to fabricate the part (e.g. complete drawings, materials list, Gerber Files where appropriate, etc.) is openly available, such that any team could fabricate the part (or have it fabricated for them).

Otherwise, such parts are prohibited from use in the 2010 competition.
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Unread 23-01-2010, 20:41
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Re: new festo valves

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McLeod View Post
I believe past Festo valves were not a COTS item, but custom-made for FIRST. At least as I understand it, they were a special production run specifically for FIRST. That would bring them under Rule <R34>. However, it's certainly something that we could get a ruling on in the Q&A. It's possible, since they were donated by Festo, that FIRST treated the Festo valves as COTS.
You can get the older festo "block style" ones from any festo distributor just give them the p/n 13026238 hands down COTS

http://www.pneuaire.com/13026238.html
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Unread 23-01-2010, 21:17
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Re: new festo valves

I stand corrected.

If they are available, then there's no issue.
Thanks Corey.
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Unread 30-01-2010, 15:17
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Re: new festo valves

okay I know the 09 Festo's are legal (#13026238), but what about 08's?
Festo P/N #13026684. That would help us out a lot. I'm pretty sure that was implied, but I want clarification

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Unread 05-02-2010, 11:59
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Re: new festo valves

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McLeod View Post
I stand corrected.

If they are available, then there's no issue.
Thanks Corey.
They may be available, but how about Cv? Max Cv is .32, I have been unable to find published Cv. Above link relates Cv to Orifice size, but what is the orifice size of this valve?
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Unread 05-02-2010, 12:18
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Re: new festo valves

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McLeod View Post
I stand corrected.

If they are available, then there's no issue.
Thanks Corey.
Mark,

Your link tries to relate orifice size to Cv. This is not a complete and accurate picture, and may only be good for one specific valve at a specific pressure. There are other factors that go into Cv such as orifice shape, Plunger shape, etc that need to be factored in.
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Unread 05-02-2010, 13:19
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Re: new festo valves

I asked Festo via email(product.support@us.festo.com) this was the response:

The Cv factor on the VPLE18 valve is Cv 0.297 at 80 psi.
If there are any other questions do not hesitate to contact me.
Best regards,

Robert
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Unread 05-02-2010, 13:28
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Re: new festo valves

I wasn't trying to make any claims as regards Cv when I posted that link.
It was just the first one I could quickly find that included a photo of the valve, so we could see it had the same outward appearance as last year's model.

I don't believe the manufacturer was making any claims for other makers or even other models. They do list it as approximate Cv for this particular model. The orifice isn't the same as the port size if that's what you were thinking. A 1/8" orifice is what we got in past KOPs with an approximate Cv of .30 We can find the exact Cv (0.297) if we drill down into the product catalog.

In any case, FIRST 2010 Q&A has ruled the past Festo valve as legal for this year's competition.
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Last edited by Mark McLeod : 06-02-2010 at 10:52.
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Unread 06-02-2010, 16:21
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Re: new festo valves

I managed to download the document 2010FestoFIRSTvalve.pdf . In the electrical connection portion it says to attach one end of each cable to a 24vdc supply and the other to an 0VDC signal. Does it matter which cable goes where? Do both cables have to be doubled up to function as one? Do the cables have to be reversed to move as one? I understand they go to the pnuematic breakout. It also says the red cable is 24vdc and black is 0. Which one goes where?

Just for fat: Is the Red cable ALWAYS live, and black ALWAYS nuetral except when connecting intermediate devices?

Thanks
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Unread 23-03-2010, 20:15
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Re: new festo valves

To teams who have already used the 2009 Festo single solenoids in regionals this year:

Was the Pneuaire website (http://www.pneuaire.com/4waysova.html) accepted as valid documentation for the cv and orifice size?

Thanks,
Dave
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Unread 23-03-2010, 22:15
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Re: new festo valves

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmlawrence View Post
To teams who have already used the 2009 Festo single solenoids in regionals this year:

Was the Pneuaire website (http://www.pneuaire.com/4waysova.html) accepted as valid documentation for the cv and orifice size?

Thanks,
Dave
Dave,
I brought that printed out along with this Q&A from first stating that the valve was legal: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14677

While we were not asked for further documentation at the regionals we attended, better safe than sorry.
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Unread 24-03-2010, 00:04
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Re: new festo valves

If I were inspecting your robot, I'd be inclined to reject the Pneuaire chart you linked.

The Cv of a valve depends on its internal geometry, measured at a given set of working fluid conditions. Relating the port diameter to Cv is not even remotely accurate—especially when it isn't clear whether those are actual diameters, or nominal NPT diameters. Also, despite a similar-looking valve being pictured (to the 2009-and-earlier Festo valves), there's no model number or manufacturer specified.

Now, with regard to Cv and that Festo valve, you can derive it from the flow rating in standard cubic feet per minute (SCFM), which is given on the specification sheet (as "cfm"). The conversion process is documented here (for example).

Since FIRST hasn't specified the pressure at which the 0.32 Cv rating applies, you might rightly wonder how to calculate the Cv properly. Manufacturers often provide Cv at the maximum operating pressure (usually around 120 lb/in2, but varying considerably depending on the parts). By contrast, FIRST established this limit based on the flow of the 2010 KOP Festo valve at 60 lb/in2,* but never specified this in the rules.

My calculations for the 2009 KOP Festo valve (unofficially) yield Cv = 0.395 at 25°C and 60 lb/in2, and Cv = 0.177 at the same temperature and 120 lb/in2. To be absolutely sure, contact Festo using the phone number listed on the datasheet and get the maximum pressure rating, operating pressure rating and Cv (and the pressure and temperature at which that Cv is valid).

Of course, you can also run multiple valves in parallel, and increase the flow of the entire system.

*According to the explanation that was provided to robot inspectors by FIRST staff.
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Unread 17-02-2011, 10:28
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Re: new festo valves

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan Lall View Post

Of course, you can also run multiple valves in parallel, and increase the flow of the entire system.

*According to the explanation that was provided to robot inspectors by FIRST staff.
I think there is a rule which requires every motion to be controlled by flow in exactly one valve - so two valves in parallel would not be legal. The multi-valve issue came up in a GDC response to a question from a team looking to use a three position cylinder.

Was this true in previous years?
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Unread 17-02-2011, 13:28
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Re: new festo valves

This thread is from the 2010 season and does not reference current 2011 rules.

In previous year's there was no rule against feeding a cylinder from multiple valves.

In 2011 there is such a rule.
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