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Unread 24-01-2010, 22:04
kngscrpn24 kngscrpn24 is offline
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Question Robot+Old Skis=Legal?

Hello all,

My team has designed our shooting mechanism using very old skis to prototype with. Now that we are getting farther into the build season, we have realized that our prototype is a very good final product.

The skis we used are late-80's/early-90's and are definitely not currently available new. We have greatly altered them, but the fact remains that they were originally skis and are not commercially available to other teams. Would these skis be illegal by FIRST guidelines?

We used them simply because the price was right (they were free), and we would hate to have to buy new ones- they aren't cheap!!!

Please help!
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Unread 24-01-2010, 22:05
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Re: Robot+Old Skis=Legal?

From all the rules reading I've done, they're definitely illegal.

Bummer, but that's how the game works.
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Unread 24-01-2010, 22:15
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Re: Robot+Old Skis=Legal?

Bummer indeed. Intuitively one would think that the same type of COTS product is very readily available and thus the current 'new' value of the donated skis would be enough to validate their use, yet the rules as written don't permit it.
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Unread 24-01-2010, 22:19
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Re: Robot+Old Skis=Legal?

search eBay and/or Craig's list and see if any are out there for sale. If yes, the question is, does that make them available to any team?
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Unread 24-01-2010, 22:22
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Re: Robot+Old Skis=Legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bertman View Post
search eBay and/or Craig's list and see if any are out there for sale. If yes, the question is, does that make them available to any team?
neither Ebay or Craigslist act as VENDORS or would make the old ski's a COTS...

Old ski's are a no go a currently available model are ok.

I'd check out a http://www.playitagainsports.com/snowsports.aspx type store it may be older or used but as long as it is available new you may be able to get some for cheaper
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Unread 24-01-2010, 22:27
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Re: Robot+Old Skis=Legal?

thanks for the clarification
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Unread 24-01-2010, 23:01
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Re: Robot+Old Skis=Legal?

in 2008, team 1350 used old skis bought for $10 for their robot with out any issues.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=64955

I would think your skis would be okay too
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Unread 24-01-2010, 23:18
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Re: Robot+Old Skis=Legal?

I suggest that you sumit this to the Q&A before spending money on a new set of skis.

While you've got some good advice from some really experienced FIRSTers, here, and I certainly see where they are coming from, I'd like to suggest a slightly different take on the issue.

I suggest the skis that you have used are not a component, but a raw material. "Old skis", that need to be cut, drilled, and shaped, like any other raw material may well be sufficiently generic that the GDC would consider them as being available to any team. While other teams may not have access to your specific skis, they have access to others that are substantially similar. You gain no advantage by using old skis.

So I don't necessarily disagree with the advice that you've been given, but there may be more than one way to consider the problem. Either way, new skis are definitely legal, and only the Q&A forums can give you a clairification on the the old skis that you can count on for inspection.

Good job of recycling, though. I hope you can use them!

Jason
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Unread 25-01-2010, 06:14
kngscrpn24 kngscrpn24 is offline
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Re: Robot+Old Skis=Legal?

Thanks everyone for a lightning (not lightening ) quick response. I'm afraid this may go over like a lead balloon with the team though. I really am not excited about even bringing up the topic! (This was independent research).

Thank you dtengineering for that sliver of hope. We will definitely check that out before we spend. And playitagainsports is a great source for stuff like that. I'll cross my fingers that I'll live through the day- after all I am a programmer. Living is never certain for us.
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Unread 25-01-2010, 06:49
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Re: Robot+Old Skis=Legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtengineering View Post
I suggest that you sumit this to the Q&A before spending money on a new set of skis.

While you've got some good advice from some really experienced FIRSTers, here, and I certainly see where they are coming from, I'd like to suggest a slightly different take on the issue.

I suggest the skis that you have used are not a component, but a raw material. "Old skis", that need to be cut, drilled, and shaped, like any other raw material may well be sufficiently generic that the GDC would consider them as being available to any team. While other teams may not have access to your specific skis, they have access to others that are substantially similar. You gain no advantage by using old skis.

So I don't necessarily disagree with the advice that you've been given, but there may be more than one way to consider the problem. Either way, new skis are definitely legal, and only the Q&A forums can give you a clairification on the the old skis that you can count on for inspection.

Good job of recycling, though. I hope you can use them!

Jason

Interesting way to look at as you could say the ski is used only for it's "material" and that this material is a COTS and the ski would now fall under.

Quote:
FABRICATED ITEM – Any COMPONENT or MECHANISM that has been altered, built, cast, constructed, concocted, created, cut, heat treated, machined, manufactured, modified, painted, produced, surface coated, or conjured partially or completely into the final form in which it will be used on the ROBOT.
I agree it is well worth having your team ask in Q&A if you have vested a fair bit of time and strategy into it.
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Unread 25-01-2010, 06:51
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Re: Robot+Old Skis=Legal?

I agree with Dtengineering. If I took a piece of aluminum from an AC bracket off a 1967 FIat, and cut it to shape, then drilled and tapped it to make a part, I wasn't using a 1967 Fiat as a component, I was using a piece of aluminum. I assume these skis are either wood or fiberglass, and what you have is a part made from wood or fiberglass, not skis.

I don't think the intent of the rule is to make you spend a lot of money on new raw materials, but to make sure any component you use is available to all teams.

I would ask the question on Q&A, be sure to be specific in your phrasing as to whether the ski is used as-is, or just a donor for material.
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Unread 25-01-2010, 09:51
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Re: Robot+Old Skis=Legal?

Without knowing how much the parts still resemble skis, it's hard for us to know if the skis are being used as a component or a raw material.

My guess is that if they're fiberglass skis, or some other built up kind of thing, then the original skis are not merely a raw material, no matter what you did them.

I sure understand the situation you're in, it's a tough one. The only used non-robot type parts we're playing with now for this years robot are ones that we have a COTS source of replacements for. btdt
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Unread 25-01-2010, 10:31
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Re: Robot+Old Skis=Legal?

I think Jason nailed this one. You really need to read and understand the definition of a COTS part and a FABRICATED part (too lengthy for this post). I believe you have a fabricated part. Unless it specifically uses the design of a ski that is not reproduce-able by other teams, I think it is legal. However, it also must conform to other rules sections. For instance, will it be used in contact with the floor or arena borders? Can it cause damage to the arena? It is being used in a safe manner?
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Unread 25-01-2010, 10:49
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Re: Robot+Old Skis=Legal?

If other skis with the same fit, form and function are available as a replacement part available to all teams, you should be OK (pending the Q&A answer). You would have to choose some skis that have the same specs that could be bought now, and use that as the price.

Also, as long as you didn't start cutting the skis until after the build season started, then it should fall under <R33>.
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Unread 25-01-2010, 11:21
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Re: Robot+Old Skis=Legal?

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