Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?

[Dad1279]

I think the GDC answer is based on the definition below:

NORMAL CONFIGURATION – The physical configuration and orientation of the ROBOT when the MATCH is started. This is the state of the ROBOT immediately before being enabled by the Field Management System, before the ROBOT takes any actions, deploys any mechanisms, or moves away
from the starting location. This configuration is static, and does not change during a single MATCH (although it may change from MATCH to MATCH).

The robot may not change shape or orientation to go under the tunnel. It may deploy or retract mechanisms.

[nitneylion452]

But look at the game animation, one of the robots folds down to go through the tunnel. At about 2:04 you'll see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iheq7yar5c4

[nitneylion452]

See 2:04 in the game animation.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by LH Machinist

<R10> During the MATCH, the ROBOT will assume one of two operating configurations. When in each configuration, the ROBOT shall fit within the limits of NORMAL CONFIGURATION or FINALE CONFIGURATION

I believe the definition of normal configuration is the reason for "NO"

NORMAL CONFIGURATION – The physical configuration and orientation of the ROBOT when the MATCH is started. This is the state of the ROBOT immediately before being enabled by the Field Management System, before the ROBOT takes any actions, deploys any mechanisms, or moves away from the starting location. This configuration is static, and does not change during a single MATCH (although it may change from MATCH to MATCH).

The implications of this are very interesting. When a robot starts the match (definition of NORMAL CONFIGURATION) at in a specific configuration (LxWxH), it may not change that configuration until it enters FINALE CONFIGURATION.

This means that robots may not change size, even if it remains within the 28"x38"x60" dimensions.

Hmmmm.......

Originally Posted by nitneylion452

See 2:04 in the game animation.

Game animation does not equal rules.

[Dad1279]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

The implications of this are very interesting. When a robot starts the match (definition of NORMAL CONFIGURATION) at in a specific configuration (LxWxH), it may not change that configuration until it enters FINALE CONFIGURATION.

This means that robots may not change size, even if it remains within the 28"x38"x60" dimensions.
....

That's my take also, upon re-reading the rules, with the exception of deploying 'mechanisms' which must follow the sizing & time rules.

Game animations often take 'liberties' Also, in this animation, the eyes that 'retract' are mechanisms.

Rules & Updates trump the animations.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by Dad1279

That's my take also, upon re-reading the rules, with the exception of deploying 'mechanisms' which must follow the sizing & time rules.

Game animations often take 'liberties' Also, in this animation, the eyes that 'retract' are mechanisms.

...This seems like the same sort of MECHANISM versus ROBOT argument that occured in 2008 with 1519 and the Speed Racer/Fezzik incident. What defines a MECHANISM and makes the distinction from say, and frame that changes dimensions?

[EricH]

I'm thinking that someone needs to ask Q&A for clarification. It's been several days, and I haven't seen anything that would clarify either way.

Daniel, I recall Dave saying that the animation follows all current rules when it is done, but the rules may change slightly between completion and Kickoff.

[engunneer]

Originally Posted by yoshibrock

I think you mean during autonomous period, where the robot can't cross the middle line. In teleoperated, I'm pretty sure you can go wherever you want.

There is no rule about not going through the tunnel in autonomous. There is a penalty for COMPLETELY crossing the center line, so it's extremely risky, but legal to to attempt a tunnel trip in autonomous.

[nitneylion452]

I'll ask as soon as my login issues are solved. (I can't log in because it says I have invalid information, but I used the exact same information in school and it worked.)

[LH Machinist]

Hopefully the GDC will clarify this soon. A strict interpretation of static configuration (L x W x H) that cannot change...technically bans robots than use a center set of wheels lower than the front and back wheels. The tipping action changes your configuration.

[Ziaholic]

I'm really hoping that the INTENT of the NORMAL configuration rule was to lock down the LxW ... but I'd like to believe that they would leave the H as a dynamic number. (i.e. as long as it's less than the max, it's legal)


Like in the animation, at 2:04, when the toon-bot drops its eyes to fit under the tunnel. There's a good chance that my team will do the same thing with our camera.


The Q&A will clarify their ruling, hopefully in favor of a dynamic height.
[crosses fingers]

[fuzzy1718]

I believe we have found this year's battery fiasco (refering to last year's GDC scare) Hopefully the ruling will be retracted otherwise 6 wheel rockers are out.

[LH Machinist]

GDC answered



Re: NORMAL CONFIGURATION question

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In addition to the NORMAL CONFIGURATION, the FRAME PERIMETER must also be considered. The FRAME PERIMETER must be a fixed, unchanging polygon (Rule <R11>). Parts of the ROBOT are not allowed to extend beyond the vertical projection of the FRAME PERIMETER (Rule <R16>). MECHANISMS that stay entirely within this volume are permitted. But a MECHANISM that deploys outside the FRAME PERIMETER but inside the NORMAL CONFIGURATION (except as permitted by Rule <G30>) would be a violation. It is noted that this distinction really only makes a significant difference in the cases where the FRAME PERIMETER is substantially smaller than the NORMAL CONFIGURATION volume limits.

[SavtaKenneth]

That doesn't answer the question, what that one means is that I'm not allowed to make a tiny robot that uses a kicker outside of the frame perimeter that'd still be inside the NORMAL CONFIGURATION.

NORMAL CONFIGURATION – The physical configuration and orientation of the ROBOT when the MATCH is started.
This is the state of the ROBOT immediately before being enabled by the Field Management System, before the ROBOT
takes any actions, deploys any mechanisms, or moves away from the starting location. This configuration is static, and does
not change during a single MATCH (although it may change from MATCH to MATCH).

That'd mean that you are allowed to retract vertically as this applies only to pre-match configuration. The it may change from match to match section is probably for cases where the team choses to have a hardware switch for which alliance they are on for autonomous mode or something similar.

[GaryVoshol]

There's 3 new GDC answers on this topic:

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14223

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14232

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14096

The last one specifically asks about the answer that started this thread. It seems the GDC interpreted the question differently than most of us here.

Originally Posted by 2010FRC0141

In reference to this thread- http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=13940 conclusions drawn here seem to be conflicting with the game manual. Nowhere can we find a rule that says we cannot have actuators that expand from starting configuration but remain inside the frame perimeter and do not exceed the normal configuration as defined per rule R-10. Can you clarify please?

Originally Posted by GDC

There is no rule that would prohibit parts of the ROBOT from expanding/contracting within the limits of the NORMAL CONFIGURATION and the vertical projection of the FRAME PERIMETER. That is a different question than the one referenced.

The answer to the question referenced was "No" because we interpreted the question as asking about expanding and contracting in the horizontal plane, which is prohibited.