Go to Post theyre not planning on blowing up the comet... just running straight into it and seeing what happens. :D - Winged Wonder [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #106   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2010, 12:08
IndySam's Avatar
IndySam IndySam is offline
Registered User
FRC #0829 (Digital Goats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Indy
Posts: 3,362
IndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikesrock View Post
But he was. The rules were clear, whatever stuck out the farthest in the Bumper Zone defined the Frame Perimeter, whether that was an axle or a bolt or a a hot glued army man.
See that's where we will have to agree to disagree.

Too me the rules were clear. Yes that axle bolt defined the perimeter so the bumper would have to be outside that perimeter. The only exception was that small clearance holes or pockets were allowed in the bumper backing material to allow that axle bolt. How does that exception become translated to allow that axle bolt or rivet or whatever not covered by that backing material?
__________________
"Champions are champions not because they do anything extraordinary but because they do the ordinary things better than anyone else." —Chuck Knoll


2015 Indianapolis District Winner
2014 Boilermaker Regional Industrial Design Award
2013 Smoky Mountain Regional Industrial Design Award
2012 Boilermaker Engineering Excellence Award
2010 Boilermaker Rockwell Innovation in Control Award.
2009 Buckeye J&J Gracious Professionalism Award
2009 Boilermaker J&J Gracious Professionalism Award
2008 Boilermaker J&J Gracious Professionalism Award
2007 St Louis Regional Winners
  #107   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2010, 12:16
Vikesrock's Avatar
Vikesrock Vikesrock is offline
Team 2175 Founder
AKA: Kevin O'Connor
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 3,305
Vikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Vikesrock Send a message via MSN to Vikesrock Send a message via Yahoo to Vikesrock
Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndySam View Post
See that's where we will have to agree to disagree.

Too me the rules were clear. Yes that axle bolt defined the perimeter so the bumper would have to be outside that perimeter. The only exception was that small clearance holes or pockets were allowed in the bumper backing material to allow that axle bolt. How does that exception become translated to allow that axle bolt or rivet or whatever not covered by that backing material?
Note: Caps denote references to official definitions, not anger or frustration.


That bolt defined the FRAME PERIMETER. If you had a 26"x36" frame with fasteners sticking out in the BUMPER ZONE 1/4" on each side right in the corners, your FRAME PERIMETER was a 26.5"x36.5" rectangle.

This meant the rest of your robot had to fit within a vertical projection of this 26.5"x36.5" rectangle per <R16>.

After Update 6 this robot now has a FRAME PERIMETER of 26"x36". Any parts that fall within the 26.5"x36.5" projection but outside the 26"x36" projection went from perfectly legal to a violation of <R16>.

I'm not sure what part of this you disagree with so feel free to grab any of the steps out of the above and show me where I may be wrong (and I most certainly may be)
__________________


2007 Wisconsin Regional Highest Rookie Seed & Regional Finalists (Thanks 930 & 2039)
2008 MN Regional Semifinalists (Thanks 2472 & 1756)
2009 Northstar Regional Semifinalists (Thanks 171 & 525)
  #108   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2010, 12:22
MrForbes's Avatar
MrForbes MrForbes is offline
Registered User
AKA: Jim
FRC #1726 (N.E.R.D.S.)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 6,029
MrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER

After reading the discussion, and talking about it, and rereading the rules, I came to the conclusion that the rule was ambiguous before Update 7.

So you're both right.

Apparently Paul might have made a wrong assumption....which is easy to do when the rules are ambiguous. Or he made a literal interpretation of what the rules said before update 6.

I learned a while back to err on the conservative side when the rules are ambiguous. Unfortunately it's usually hard to see that the rules ARE ambiguous unless you can see both interpretations. Usually we can't!
  #109   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2010, 13:02
IndySam's Avatar
IndySam IndySam is offline
Registered User
FRC #0829 (Digital Goats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Indy
Posts: 3,362
IndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikesrock View Post
Note: Caps denote references to official definitions, not anger or frustration.


That bolt defined the FRAME PERIMETER. If you had a 26"x36" frame with fasteners sticking out in the BUMPER ZONE 1/4" on each side right in the corners, your FRAME PERIMETER was a 26.5"x36.5" rectangle.

This meant the rest of your robot had to fit within a vertical projection of this 26.5"x36.5" rectangle per <R16>.

After Update 6 this robot now has a FRAME PERIMETER of 26"x36". Any parts that fall within the 26.5"x36.5" projection but outside the 26"x36" projection went from perfectly legal to a violation of <R16>.

I'm not sure what part of this you disagree with so feel free to grab any of the steps out of the above and show me where I may be wrong (and I most certainly may be)

From the update:
Note: to permit a simplified definition of the FRAME PERIMETER and encourage a tight, robust connection between the BUMPERS and the FRAME PERIMETER, minor protrusions such as bolt heads, fastener ends, rivets, etc are excluded from the determination of the FRAME PERIMETER.

The key words are encourage a tight, robust connection between the BUMPERS and the FRAME PERIMETER show that the change was for the bumper area and not the rest of the frame. I think if you assumed that changed the frame perimeter then I think your made a huge leap of logic (just my opinion.)

But say I do agree with your scenario and they did change the perimeter definitions. They changed it on day 20 where frame designs should have been already finished and then after seeing the ambiguity they created quickly released clarification 4 days later. A fast and reasonable response.
__________________
"Champions are champions not because they do anything extraordinary but because they do the ordinary things better than anyone else." —Chuck Knoll


2015 Indianapolis District Winner
2014 Boilermaker Regional Industrial Design Award
2013 Smoky Mountain Regional Industrial Design Award
2012 Boilermaker Engineering Excellence Award
2010 Boilermaker Rockwell Innovation in Control Award.
2009 Buckeye J&J Gracious Professionalism Award
2009 Boilermaker J&J Gracious Professionalism Award
2008 Boilermaker J&J Gracious Professionalism Award
2007 St Louis Regional Winners
  #110   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2010, 13:32
Tristan Lall's Avatar
Tristan Lall Tristan Lall is offline
Registered User
FRC #0188 (Woburn Robotics)
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 2,484
Tristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikesrock View Post
That bolt defined the FRAME PERIMETER. If you had a 26"x36" frame with fasteners sticking out in the BUMPER ZONE 1/4" on each side right in the corners, your FRAME PERIMETER was a 26.5"x36.5" rectangle.

This meant the rest of your robot had to fit within a vertical projection of this 26.5"x36.5" rectangle per <R16>.
There's a little problem with that reasoning: although they don't go right ahead and say it, by giving the string example in the definition, it's clear that the definition of frame perimeter refers to the minimal convex polygon within the bumper zone. For many designs, that's different from the minimal bounding quadrilateral (which you're describing). (There are even a couple of possible—but unlikely—cases where this isn't the minimum quadrilateral either.)

Unfortunately, it's not exactly clear whether this is intended to be an imaginary string wrapped around the projection of all such points in a plane, or wrapped around the outermost subset of points that are coplanar within the bumper zone. (Imagine that on a rectangular robot, two opposite sides have bolts at 10.5 in from the ground, and the other two sides have bolts at 15.5 in from the ground; how do you wrap that string and still meet the definition? If we're talking string, then concavity in 3-D is the same as in 2-D—i.e. not allowed. How do you define "outermost"—is this with respect to a centroid? Which one, and how do you find it?)

In any case, if your outermost bolts within the bumper zone are near the corners of your rectangular robot, we can use your example as a rough approximation for the purposes of discussion.
  #111   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2010, 13:32
Rob Rob is offline
Registered User
AKA: Rob
FRC #0131 (CHAOS)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 304
Rob has a reputation beyond reputeRob has a reputation beyond reputeRob has a reputation beyond reputeRob has a reputation beyond reputeRob has a reputation beyond reputeRob has a reputation beyond reputeRob has a reputation beyond reputeRob has a reputation beyond reputeRob has a reputation beyond reputeRob has a reputation beyond reputeRob has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Rob
Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER

So having thought about this a while and re-read the details several times I can see where this definition is coming from.

Last year the "pockets in the bumper backing" ruling came out mid-season to allow teams to legally use the Kitbot as provided. The heads of the kitbot axle bolts would have been in violation for the majority of teams that used this setup otherwise. (The fact that the instructions said to assemble it with open corners was a separate issue that cause other inspection problems, but I digress...)

This year the kitbot changed a bit with the "legs" to lift the chassis portion up above the drive wheels. If used as provided , the kitbot would provide the start of a legal frame unlike last year. Many teams (mine included) used a kitbot setup similar to last year and now have an issue with bolt heads protruding out below the bumper zone. The shift in bumper zone to a higher position than it was in the past is what is causing problems here.

The fact that a the kitbot as provided is legal for the update 7 version of the frame perimeter is a good thing. Unfortunately for those of us who used modified or alternate frames the previous version of the frame perimeter was either different or ambiguous. Now it is clear, and it is also different from many people's previous interpretations.

We are lucky in that we have enough space to play with to build in an extension to our frame perimeter in the bumper zone. I hope that all teams have enough wiggle room to play with here. I fear that this will be an issue for quite a few teams. This is a detail that can be tough to pick up on. I hope that folks in the CD community can help out local teams who may not be up to speed on this definition.

Thanks, and good luck!

Rob
  #112   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2010, 13:40
Vikesrock's Avatar
Vikesrock Vikesrock is offline
Team 2175 Founder
AKA: Kevin O'Connor
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 3,305
Vikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Vikesrock Send a message via MSN to Vikesrock Send a message via Yahoo to Vikesrock
Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan Lall View Post
There's a little problem with that reasoning: although they don't go right ahead and say it, by giving the string example in the definition, it's clear that the definition of frame perimeter refers to the minimal convex polygon within the bumper zone. For many designs, that's different from the minimal bounding quadrilateral (which you're describing). (There are even a couple of possible—but unlikely—cases where this isn't the minimum quadrilateral either.)
I was careful (but not particularly clear) to include "right at the corners" in my wording.

What I intended to portray was each corner of the robot having a bolt coming out of each face directly adjacent to the corner, so 2 bolts per corner, 8 total. This should result in the rough approximation you suggested.
__________________


2007 Wisconsin Regional Highest Rookie Seed & Regional Finalists (Thanks 930 & 2039)
2008 MN Regional Semifinalists (Thanks 2472 & 1756)
2009 Northstar Regional Semifinalists (Thanks 171 & 525)
  #113   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2010, 13:43
dlavery's Avatar
dlavery dlavery is offline
Curmudgeon
FRC #0116 (Epsilon Delta)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Herndon, VA
Posts: 3,176
dlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikesrock View Post
Note: Caps denote references to official definitions, not anger or frustration.

That bolt defined the FRAME PERIMETER. If you had a 26"x36" frame with fasteners sticking out in the BUMPER ZONE 1/4" on each side right in the corners, your FRAME PERIMETER was a 26.5"x36.5" rectangle.

This meant the rest of your robot had to fit within a vertical projection of this 26.5"x36.5" rectangle per <R16>.
This is exactly the sort of situation that many people are not fully considering. It appears that many wanted to implement this configuration, or some close variation of it, and are alarmed that the revised wording of the rule appears to complicate their ability to do so. But you have to understand that under the original wording of the rules, this configuration led directly to an illegal ROBOT that would have been rejected at inspection.

In this example, the extended bolt heads defined the vertices of the FRAME PERIMETER. But you have to then consider that the in the area in between the bolt heads, the FRAME PERIMETER is now in free space 1/4 inch away from the actual frame structure of the robot. Under Rule <R07-I>, the BUMPERS must attach to the FRAME PERIMETER. Not 1/4 inch inside the FRAME PERIMETER (where the actual frame structure is located), but directly to the FRAME PERIMETER. Which means that for the portion of the BUMPERS between the bolt heads, the BUMPERS would not be supported. But under Rule <R07-M>, the entire length of the BUMPER backing must be supported and not in free space. Thus, this configuration would have been in violation of at least one, and potentially more, rules.

The revised wording corrected this entire situation and gave you a clean way to bolt your frame together and securely attach the bumpers without a violation.

-dave



.
__________________
"I know what you're thinking, punk," hissed Wordy Harry to his new editor, "you're thinking, 'Did he use six superfluous adjectives or only five?' - and to tell the truth, I forgot myself in all this excitement; but being as this is English, the most powerful language in the world, whose subtle nuances will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' - well do you, punk?"
- Stuart Vasepuru, 2006 Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest



My OTHER CAR is still on Mars!!!
  #114   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2010, 13:50
Vikesrock's Avatar
Vikesrock Vikesrock is offline
Team 2175 Founder
AKA: Kevin O'Connor
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 3,305
Vikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Vikesrock Send a message via MSN to Vikesrock Send a message via Yahoo to Vikesrock
Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery View Post
...

The revised wording corrected this entire situation and gave you a clean way to bolt your frame together and securely attach the bumpers without a violation.

-dave

.
Touchè! Dave, thank you very much for chiming in here. This makes the purpose of Updates 6 and 7 much more clear.
__________________


2007 Wisconsin Regional Highest Rookie Seed & Regional Finalists (Thanks 930 & 2039)
2008 MN Regional Semifinalists (Thanks 2472 & 1756)
2009 Northstar Regional Semifinalists (Thanks 171 & 525)
  #115   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2010, 13:52
IndySam's Avatar
IndySam IndySam is offline
Registered User
FRC #0829 (Digital Goats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Indy
Posts: 3,362
IndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgannon View Post
Right, that's the problem. Protrusions below the BUMPER ZONE used to be allowed so long as they were within the FRAME PERIMETER, which could be defined by corresponding protrusions in the BUMPER ZONE. Then a change was made that only impacted the BUMPER ZONE, thus pushing protrusions below it out of spec.
If protrusions are within the frame perimeter then they are not protrusions. They are legal parts within the perimeter. I don't see how you make the leap from that in any way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jgannon View Post
That's not what happened. A clarification was made that introduced ambiguity, and then a further clarification changed the rule entirely, weeks after kickoff, when frame designs should have been already finished.
Update 6 introduce the ambiguity. Update 7 clarified the rule and did not change the original rule at all.

See DL's post.
__________________
"Champions are champions not because they do anything extraordinary but because they do the ordinary things better than anyone else." —Chuck Knoll


2015 Indianapolis District Winner
2014 Boilermaker Regional Industrial Design Award
2013 Smoky Mountain Regional Industrial Design Award
2012 Boilermaker Engineering Excellence Award
2010 Boilermaker Rockwell Innovation in Control Award.
2009 Buckeye J&J Gracious Professionalism Award
2009 Boilermaker J&J Gracious Professionalism Award
2008 Boilermaker J&J Gracious Professionalism Award
2007 St Louis Regional Winners
  #116   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2010, 14:25
Jonathan Norris Jonathan Norris is offline
Jno
FRC #0610 (Crescent Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,082
Jonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER

I'm sorry this is getting out of hand, I am having a hard enough time understanding what is illegal and legal and I've been around FIRST for 6 years. The lawyering of these frame perimeter rules is going way to far, the GDC tells us to not lawyer the definition of the rules and try and understand the intent of the rule, however these frame perimeter rules are getting so lawyered and technical that I can't even explain it to the students I mentor.

This is a high school robotics competition, can we please make these frame perimeter rules easier to understand so the high school students I work with can sit down with the manual and understand them??

I understand the intent of the rule, to have the outside frame of the robot support the Bumpers in the Bumper Zone. But if this means I can't have my bumper frame protrude perpendicularly up from my the outside of my lower drive frame because of the #10 screw head that is holding our drive shafts in makes it illegal, this is getting way to technical. Yea there are ways that we can 'hack' our frame to fit the technicalities of these rules even though it is already all welded together, but I don't see why we would waste our time changing it when our frame meets the intent of the rules.
__________________
Co-Founder of Taplytics.com
2013 World Champions (1241, 1477, 610)
Crescent Robotics Team 610 Mentor
K-Botics Team 2809 Founding Mentor ('09-'11)
Queen's University Mechanical Engineering, Applied Science '11

Crescent Robotics Team 610 Alumni
  #117   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2010, 17:58
Paul Copioli's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero Woodie Flowers Award
Paul Copioli Paul Copioli is offline
President, VEX Robotics, Inc.
FRC #3310 (Black Hawk Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Rockwall, TX
Posts: 1,392
Paul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER

Dave, all;

I will be clear about this. There was no ambiguity in my mind in the rule prior to update 6 that is why I couldn't be conservative with regards to the ambiguity. The original rule never stated that bolts don't count so it is my "common sense" that bolts sticking out within the bumper zone had to define the frame perimeter. How could I logically make an exception?

So I want to get this straight: The original rules actually intended to make every sheet metal + rivet construction robot illegal this year? GDC members are not blind so they see how many robots are constructed. Everyone keeps talking about bolt heads, but even rivets are illegal. That, to me, is just plain stupid.

Every year there is something: G22, G14 ... well this year I know what it is....

Well, at least I'll have some fun with it at IRI.

This is simply irritating. We'll get by, but I'm not really concerned about my teams.

Paul

P.S. - JVN says 148 will be bringing lots of extra shim strips with us to Dallas and Houston. 217 will be bringing the same to Finger Lakes, Cass Tech, and Troy. There will be many teams that are totally blind sided by this because they do not have as much "common sense" as some people on CD and they don't check CD.
__________________
In full disclosure I am the President of VEX Robotics, a division of Innovation First International.
  #118   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2010, 18:12
gren737 gren737 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Sarah Grenier Montplaisir
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 1995
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 112
gren737 has a reputation beyond reputegren737 has a reputation beyond reputegren737 has a reputation beyond reputegren737 has a reputation beyond reputegren737 has a reputation beyond reputegren737 has a reputation beyond reputegren737 has a reputation beyond reputegren737 has a reputation beyond reputegren737 has a reputation beyond reputegren737 has a reputation beyond reputegren737 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER

What if we all just went back to a time that I'll refer to as "B.B." or Before Bumpers and all you had to do with build a robot that fit inside the sizing box?

Can I throw this one up to the GDC to consider?? I know bumpers are most likely here to stay, but honestly the headaches they create is not worth the little bit of cushioning provided to the robot during a match. If you can't stand the heat.....


I dunno, just my $.02
  #119   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2010, 18:46
artdutra04's Avatar
artdutra04 artdutra04 is offline
VEX Robotics Engineer
AKA: Arthur Dutra IV; NERD #18
FRC #0148 (Robowranglers)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Greenville, TX
Posts: 3,078
artdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER

Quote:
Originally Posted by gren737 View Post
What if we all just went back to a time that I'll refer to as "B.B." or Before Bumpers and all you had to do with build a robot that fit inside the sizing box?

Can I throw this one up to the GDC to consider?? I know bumpers are most likely here to stay, but honestly the headaches they create is not worth the little bit of cushioning provided to the robot during a match. If you can't stand the heat.....


I dunno, just my $.02
I liked those days. You had a starting size limit, a total weight limit, and that was pretty much it for size and weight restrictions.

It was clear, understandable, and a degree in constitutional law wasn't necessary to understand the dozens of clauses, exemptions, and the exact DEFINITIONS of various aspects of the robot and the game.
__________________
Art Dutra IV
Robotics Engineer, VEX Robotics, Inc., a subsidiary of Innovation First International (IFI)
Robowranglers Team 148 | GUS Robotics Team 228 (Alumni) | Rho Beta Epsilon (Alumni) | @arthurdutra

世上无难事,只怕有心人.
  #120   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2010, 19:23
sanddrag sanddrag is offline
On to my 16th year in FRC
FRC #0696 (Circuit Breakers)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Glendale, CA
Posts: 8,519
sanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER

Paul, I think what Dave was trying to say, is that even by the original rule, if your frame perimeter consisted of a piece of metal, with a row of rivets heads on it, this would not meet the requirement to fully support the bumper along its length, since it is supported at only at the rivet heads. So, in this type of a design, a shim/spacer would have been needed all along anyhow, before any updates. Although, I suppose if small indentations were made in the bumper backing to clear the rivets, the bumper would have been supported by the metal which is inside the (as previously defined) frame perimeter, not at the frame perimeter itself.

And let's think about the following too. In theory, any member defining the frame perimeter that is not perfectly planar does not fully support the bumper. There exists no such surface.

So the question becomes, what is the maximum allowable space between the bumper backing, and the frame perimeter, for which the bumpers shall still be considered "fully supported." I would argue up to a 1/4 inch should be deemed acceptable. Materials and manufacturing methods have a tolerance...

Silly, I know...

Something needs to be done to make this all simpler for everyone. Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but I have been in FIRST for 9 years now, and I still can't figure out how I would explain this rule to anyone. Let's also remember that many inspectors have never even seen a FIRST robot before. This will never work.
__________________
Teacher/Engineer/Machinist - Team 696 Circuit Breakers, 2011 - Present
Mentor/Engineer/Machinist, Team 968 RAWC, 2007-2010
Technical Mentor, Team 696 Circuit Breakers, 2005-2007
Student Mechanical Leader and Driver, Team 696 Circuit Breakers, 2002-2004

Last edited by sanddrag : 03-02-2010 at 19:30.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
kicker extending outside of robot caincteam2777 Technical Discussion 5 17-01-2010 22:42
Frame Perimeter x Bumpers sloteera Rules/Strategy 8 14-01-2010 11:18
Frame Perimeter? jimbot General Forum 2 10-01-2010 13:48
Holding of Game-Pieces Outside the Robot Perimeter MikePres General Forum 2 24-01-2009 07:21
Ramps extending outside of the home zone Shomron1690 Rules/Strategy 31 20-03-2007 13:49


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:10.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi