Withholding limits and GP

[ebarker]

C'mon guys.....

The intent is you will ship a robot on the ship date AND you are allowed to have a limited supply of spare parts AND you are hands off on your bot on the ship date.

If you want to 'lawyer' the rules go ahead but IMHO it wouldn't be in the spirit of things.

[kevin.li.rit]

Originally Posted by ebarker

C'mon guys.....

The intent is you will ship a robot on the ship date AND you are allowed to have a limited supply of spare parts AND you are hands off on your bot on the ship date.

If you want to 'lawyer' the rules go ahead but IMHO it wouldn't be in the spirit of things.

I agree. I wasn't trying to lawyer the rules. The Withholding allowance shouldn't be used to withhold a robot.

[Chris_Elston]

ROBOT - A FRC ROBOT is a remotely operated vehicle designed and built by a FRC team to perform specific tasks when competing in the 2010 competition “Breakaway.” The ROBOT must include all the basic systems required to be an active participant in the game – power, communications, control, mobility, and actuation. The ROBOT implementation must obviously follow a design approach intended to play the 2010 FRC game (e.g. a box of unassembled parts placed on the FIELD, or a ROBOT designed to play a different game, would not satisfy this definition).

We have to ship a "robot" and the definition of a robot is above. Hope that helps.

[Mike Betts]

Originally Posted by Chris_Elston

ROBOT - A FRC ROBOT is a remotely operated vehicle designed and built by a FRC team to perform specific tasks when competing in the 2010 competition “Breakaway.” The ROBOT must include all the basic systems required to be an active participant in the game – power, communications, control, mobility, and actuation. The ROBOT implementation must obviously follow a design approach intended to play the 2010 FRC game (e.g. a box of unassembled parts placed on the FIELD, or a ROBOT designed to play a different game, would not satisfy this definition).

We have to ship a "robot" and the definition of a robot is above. Hope that helps.

Chris,

With all due respect, the withholding allowance, by design, invalidates requirement to ship a "robot" by this definition.

From the blue box of <R27>:

The primary intent of this rule is to allow teams to withhold the ROBOT control system, the OPERATOR CONSOLE, and selected relevant subsystems, and access them after the shipping deadline. This will allow teams to have the maximum time possible prior to each competition event to develop and complete the software for their ROBOT while maximizing the potential capabilities provided by the control system.

By defiition, without a control system, you have no robot. But the intent of <R27> is to withhold the control system.

Here lies the rub...

For a very light robot design, the "selected relevant subsystems" can be all of them.

Going back to the origins of this thread, it is clear to me that shipping the bumpers only is legal if the remaining system, sans battery, is less than 40 pounds.

The question is if the sacrifice of a massive robot is offset by additional development time...

A most interesting trade off study...

JMHO,

Mike

[Phoenix Spud]

Mike,

Just a friendly reminder, the blue boxes are not part of the rules and can be wrong. According to the rules, they are there to explain the intent behind the rules. In general, they are a rule of thumb, not a rule.

[EricH]

As I see it, the question is simple: Can a reasonably complete robot go into the withholding allowance?

Let's discuss this from the rules.

First, what is the withholding allowance?

WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE – A limited amount of FABRICATED ITEMS that are withheld from the ROBOT shipping requirements (specified in Section 4) and retained by the team following the shipping deadlines. These items are then hand-carried to a competition event by the team. The OPERATOR CONSOLE is automatically included in the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. Beyond that, the incoming material maximums specified in Rule <R38> limits the amount of FABRICATED ITEMS included in the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE.

"Limited amount withheld from the robot" implies--note that it doesn't specifically say one way or the other--that you can't hold back your entire robot.

What is supposed to be shipped at the end of the build season?

<R26> [stuff that is general build season info]When the ROBOT shipment deadline arrives, all work on the ROBOT must cease and the ROBOT must be placed in a “hands-off” condition. The entire ROBOT (including all FABRICATED ITEMS intended for use during the competition in alternative configurations of the ROBOT) must be crated or bagged (as appropriate for your event), and out of team hands by the shipment deadline specified in Section 4 (with the exception of the items covered by the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE).

OK, so the entire robot must be crated or bagged, along with everything else, unless it's in the allowance.

<R27> During the period between ship date and the competitions: During this period, all teams may manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT, and UPGRADE PARTS, and develop software for their ROBOT at their home facility.
C. Teams may continue development of any items retained under the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE, continue to work on them during this period, and then bring them to the competition events.
D. The total weight of the FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE, REPLACEMENT, and UPGRADE PARTS, plus all WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE items) worked upon during this period and brought to the competition event(s) must not exceed the limits specified in Rule <R38>.

Next up, the rules on what you can do with the stuff in the allowance. Pretty much fair game.

<R38> Teams may bring a maximum of 40 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and UPGRADE PARTS, plus all WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE items) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT at the competition site. All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the ROBOT during the competition shall arrive at the competition venue packed in the shipping crate or lockout bag with the ROBOT.
A. Exception: the OPERATOR CONSOLE is not included in the incoming parts weight restriction.

Aha! Here we have the definition of what exactly constitutes the allowance. Note that it includes 40 lbs of custom fabricated items from all categories.

Note that nowhere does any rule explicitely say, "Thou shalt not keep your entire robot as your withholding allowance." However, the rules certainly imply that you cannot keep your entire robot as withholding, even if it is under 40 lbs.

What I am going to say is this memorable quote from a Q&A back in 2008 in response to a very...err..."inventive" team: "That would be a violation of the spirit, but not necessarily the letter, of the rules." (Also note that someone figured out a way to bring a complete second robot to an event a few years back, and nobody's done it yet to my knowledge...)

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by EricH

What I am going to say is this memorable quote from a Q&A back in 2008 in response to a very...err..."inventive" team: "That would be a violation of the spirit, but not necessarily the letter, of the rules." (Also note that someone figured out a way to bring a complete second robot to an event a few years back, and nobody's done it yet to my knowledge...)

And, because it's relevant to this thread, does anyone know Speed Racer's weight? IIRC, Fezzik was 80-something lbs, so if you shipped the bumpers, and you're control board was just the joysticks on a piece of paper, you could probably get a robot and controls in in under 40 lbs.

($5 says that if/when submitted to the Q&A this approach will be deemed against the rules.)

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by iCurtis

...
and you're control board was just the joysticks on a piece of paper, you could probably get a robot and controls in in under 40 lbs.

The Operator Console is exempt from the 40 lbs per <R38-A> (posted above).

[EricH]

I'd actually bet that it'll be noticed and fixed in an update. Just sayin'.

[dtengineering]

If your robot is under 40 pounds, not only CAN you keep it... but you DESERVE to keep it! I don't think we've ever built anything that came out under 110 pounds, let alone under 40!

The withholding limit is one of the rules, and it is not poor sportsmanship, or disrespectful to your fellow competitors to follow the rules.

And if you show up with a 40 pound robot, I don't care how good your drivers are, or how great your code is... you'll get pushed all over the place. As much as I enjoy taking rules to their logical conclusion, I think there are practical limits that make the "40 pound robot" scenario unlikely.

But PLEASE do USE the withholding allowance... it is a great way to make your robot better!

Jason

[Bochek]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

And if you show up with a 40 pound robot, I don't care how good your drivers are, or how great your code is... you'll get pushed all over the place. As much as I enjoy taking rules to their logical conclusion, I think there are practical limits that make the "40 pound robot" scenario unlikely.

you'd have to catch us first.


Weighed the robot today, came in at 50lbs sans battery + bumpers, only gotta shave 10 lbs.

I have posted the question on the first Q+A

[rsegrest]

IMHO I agree with others that while this may not be deemed 'illegal' it certainly violates the principals and spirit of FIRST and the other teams that adhere to the 6 week rule. Speaking for our team we hold to the rules and keep only the control system etc as explicitly defined in the manual and use test systems for tweaking code. When we head for our regional we take only spare parts to repair and tools. We do not continue fabricating parts etc. Perhaps this is a disadvantage to our team that we do not do this however when we tell people six weeks we mean six weeks...once it's in the crate it's done until we get to Lone Star...so my answer would be that yes it violates the GP spirit of FIRST.

[sanddrag]

If anybody seriously wants MORE work after six weeks exhaustion, let them have it. I'll be taking a nap.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by Bochek

you'd have to catch us first.

Too Late! You are on the LRI top list now. Kidding of course. We don't keep a list.

[Bochek]

Looks like the witholding allowance will be raised to 65lbs this year according to bill's blog.

Still no response from the GDC, how long does it usually take them to respond? I can barley wait for their answer.