Withholding limits and GP

[EricH]

As I see it, the question is simple: Can a reasonably complete robot go into the withholding allowance?

Let's discuss this from the rules.

First, what is the withholding allowance?

WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE – A limited amount of FABRICATED ITEMS that are withheld from the ROBOT shipping requirements (specified in Section 4) and retained by the team following the shipping deadlines. These items are then hand-carried to a competition event by the team. The OPERATOR CONSOLE is automatically included in the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. Beyond that, the incoming material maximums specified in Rule <R38> limits the amount of FABRICATED ITEMS included in the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE.

"Limited amount withheld from the robot" implies--note that it doesn't specifically say one way or the other--that you can't hold back your entire robot.

What is supposed to be shipped at the end of the build season?

<R26> [stuff that is general build season info]When the ROBOT shipment deadline arrives, all work on the ROBOT must cease and the ROBOT must be placed in a “hands-off” condition. The entire ROBOT (including all FABRICATED ITEMS intended for use during the competition in alternative configurations of the ROBOT) must be crated or bagged (as appropriate for your event), and out of team hands by the shipment deadline specified in Section 4 (with the exception of the items covered by the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE).

OK, so the entire robot must be crated or bagged, along with everything else, unless it's in the allowance.

<R27> During the period between ship date and the competitions: During this period, all teams may manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT, and UPGRADE PARTS, and develop software for their ROBOT at their home facility.
C. Teams may continue development of any items retained under the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE, continue to work on them during this period, and then bring them to the competition events.
D. The total weight of the FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE, REPLACEMENT, and UPGRADE PARTS, plus all WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE items) worked upon during this period and brought to the competition event(s) must not exceed the limits specified in Rule <R38>.

Next up, the rules on what you can do with the stuff in the allowance. Pretty much fair game.

<R38> Teams may bring a maximum of 40 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and UPGRADE PARTS, plus all WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE items) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT at the competition site. All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the ROBOT during the competition shall arrive at the competition venue packed in the shipping crate or lockout bag with the ROBOT.
A. Exception: the OPERATOR CONSOLE is not included in the incoming parts weight restriction.

Aha! Here we have the definition of what exactly constitutes the allowance. Note that it includes 40 lbs of custom fabricated items from all categories.

Note that nowhere does any rule explicitely say, "Thou shalt not keep your entire robot as your withholding allowance." However, the rules certainly imply that you cannot keep your entire robot as withholding, even if it is under 40 lbs.

What I am going to say is this memorable quote from a Q&A back in 2008 in response to a very...err..."inventive" team: "That would be a violation of the spirit, but not necessarily the letter, of the rules." (Also note that someone figured out a way to bring a complete second robot to an event a few years back, and nobody's done it yet to my knowledge...)

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by EricH

What I am going to say is this memorable quote from a Q&A back in 2008 in response to a very...err..."inventive" team: "That would be a violation of the spirit, but not necessarily the letter, of the rules." (Also note that someone figured out a way to bring a complete second robot to an event a few years back, and nobody's done it yet to my knowledge...)

And, because it's relevant to this thread, does anyone know Speed Racer's weight? IIRC, Fezzik was 80-something lbs, so if you shipped the bumpers, and you're control board was just the joysticks on a piece of paper, you could probably get a robot and controls in in under 40 lbs.

($5 says that if/when submitted to the Q&A this approach will be deemed against the rules.)

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by iCurtis

...
and you're control board was just the joysticks on a piece of paper, you could probably get a robot and controls in in under 40 lbs.

The Operator Console is exempt from the 40 lbs per <R38-A> (posted above).

[EricH]

I'd actually bet that it'll be noticed and fixed in an update. Just sayin'.

[dtengineering]

If your robot is under 40 pounds, not only CAN you keep it... but you DESERVE to keep it! I don't think we've ever built anything that came out under 110 pounds, let alone under 40!

The withholding limit is one of the rules, and it is not poor sportsmanship, or disrespectful to your fellow competitors to follow the rules.

And if you show up with a 40 pound robot, I don't care how good your drivers are, or how great your code is... you'll get pushed all over the place. As much as I enjoy taking rules to their logical conclusion, I think there are practical limits that make the "40 pound robot" scenario unlikely.

But PLEASE do USE the withholding allowance... it is a great way to make your robot better!

Jason

[Bochek]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

And if you show up with a 40 pound robot, I don't care how good your drivers are, or how great your code is... you'll get pushed all over the place. As much as I enjoy taking rules to their logical conclusion, I think there are practical limits that make the "40 pound robot" scenario unlikely.

you'd have to catch us first.


Weighed the robot today, came in at 50lbs sans battery + bumpers, only gotta shave 10 lbs.

I have posted the question on the first Q+A

[rsegrest]

IMHO I agree with others that while this may not be deemed 'illegal' it certainly violates the principals and spirit of FIRST and the other teams that adhere to the 6 week rule. Speaking for our team we hold to the rules and keep only the control system etc as explicitly defined in the manual and use test systems for tweaking code. When we head for our regional we take only spare parts to repair and tools. We do not continue fabricating parts etc. Perhaps this is a disadvantage to our team that we do not do this however when we tell people six weeks we mean six weeks...once it's in the crate it's done until we get to Lone Star...so my answer would be that yes it violates the GP spirit of FIRST.

[sanddrag]

If anybody seriously wants MORE work after six weeks exhaustion, let them have it. I'll be taking a nap.

[Wayne Doenges]

I have two points to make:

1) If I saw a team, show up with an empty crate, and bring in their robot I would think they cheated and worked on the bot all the way up to the first regional. I wouldn't trust them.

2) If you bring in a 40 pound robot, as a fabricated part, I hope you don't break anything because you won't have any extra fabricated/spare parts.

*gets off soapbox*

[Bochek]

I am hopeing the GDC finds it legal. but even if they do we will still ship SOME of our bot (need room to make some spare parts!)

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Wayne Doenges

2) If you bring in a 40 pound robot, as a fabricated part, I hope you don't break anything because you won't have any extra fabricated/spare parts.

They shipped those in the crate....

[keehun]

Did the GDC just up the Withholding Limit?

Sorry if it was discussed before. I couldn't find it within this thread.

[Bochek]

waiting for the team update to come out in the next few days, but FRC Director posted on his blog explaining that due to weather causing a loss of build days to some teams the witholding limit will be raised to 65lbs.

[Bochek]

does anyone know how long it usualy takes the GDC to respond? I haven't heard back after posting the question on Friday. yet i see some responces to questions asked today.

- Bochek

[hipsterjr]

Originally Posted by keehun

Did the GDC just up the Withholding Limit?

Sorry if it was discussed before. I couldn't find it within this thread.

YEP!!!! It is now 65Lb to help the teams that lost build time.

I feel a little bad getting this extra time when I live in Summerville, SC