Pushing Power?

[EricH]

I never said they required or didn't require pushing. However, rookies like yourself have much to learn about FRC-style defense. Hitting another robot (not pushing, hitting--there is a difference) can easily throw them off enough to mess up a shot. Blocking someone out of a tunnel can merely be parking broadside to the tunnel. Let them get a penalty pushing you through, in necessary.

Any time there is robot-to-robot contact, somebody's alignment can get messed up. Any time alignment gets messed up, it takes time to correct, and by the time the correction is made, it is often too late.

Incidentally, should you push said mecanum robot against a wall or other field element, you should start counting if they can't move. The refs will as well. If you should prevent them from moving for more than 5 seconds, and not back away by the required amount, you get a penalty under <G29>. That's as good as them playing defense on your alliance, because even if you did score that ball that you took from them, you get no gain from it.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by EricH

That's as good as them playing defense on your alliance, because even if you did score that ball that you took from them, you get no gain from it.

Maybe. But if they average 5 goals a match, while you get 2, it would be a good idea to play defense on them the entire match and try to hold them to under 3 goals. I think if they are a mecanum drive, it shouldn't be that hard to hold a team to under 3 goals. It is all about figuring out what gives your alliance the best chance at winning.

Several people have mentioned that the 'pushing' bots will need to catch the mecanum/manuverable bots. The problem with this is the defensive bot knows (or atleast should) where the offensive robot is going, diminishing a lot of the manuverable bot's advantage. Just meet the robot at the ball, where it is going to line up to score, by the tunnel or on the way to the tower and push it out of the way.

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

Maybe. But if they average 5 goals a match, while you get 2, it would be a good idea to play defense on them the entire match and try to hold them to under 3 goals. I think if they are a mecanum drive, it shouldn't be that hard to hold a team to under 3 goals. It is all about figuring out what gives your alliance the best chance at winning.

Just remember that your logic would mean that you would still lose by 3 goals either way. When you are playing defense the entire match you aren't scoring your 2 goals...

Also remember that if you lose you get the winning team's score...so holding a team's score down during the qualification rounds really does nothing unless you can beat their alliance.

Example
You play a regular match... You lose 14 to 10

You play the same match and you lose 6 to 2

The losing and winning alliances will get 14 points in the first example..and the winning team will get an additional 20 points of coopertition points. The winners get 34 points and the losers get 14..

In the second match both teams get 6 points....and the winners get a 4 point bonus... netting 10 for the winners...and 6 for the losers.

Which match would you rather lose?

I think that in the qualification rounds that teams should concentrate on scoring ... defense does not net you points... Seeding is about the points.

Defensive struggles will net neither team very many points...

This is an offensive game during qualifications... concentrate on scoring...maybe play a little defense at the very end... if its close..

To be honest... one strategy that you might consider in a match where you are overmatched by the other alliance is to not score at all and help them score as much as you can.... The net in that match is the same for both teams....winners score...

During eliminations defense will play a greater role and scores will go down accordingly...

In qualifications a team should be busy helping their alliance score goals in whatever way they can...
Playing strong defense only hurts your chances of seeding by bringing the seeding points down... for everyone...

As I said... the only time defense might be played is if the game is tight...and near the end...

my 2 cents at least.

good luck and we will see you at the competition...!!!

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Bob Steele

Just remember that your logic would mean that you would still lose by 3 goals either way. When you are playing defense the entire match you aren't scoring your 2 goals...

Well, of course your partners and your other opponents capibilities would need to be taken into account for this (and any) strategy.

I completely understand what you are saying in respect to ranking points (or whatever they are called now) in qualification matches. But, I think there is some merits to playing each match like it is an elimination match to get ready for when the matches really count. At the end of the competition, the team with the gold medals will be those that won matches, not scored the most ranking points. I think you would be foolish to develop your strategy around the notion that little defense will be played because it hurts your seeding. Of course, basing your strategy around elimination match style, and not qualification style, could leave you watching the elimination matches.

But, when in doubt, I always think, "what would an NFL coach do?". And as Herm Edwards said, "You play to win the game".

[Nigel]

the seeding points thing makes as much sense as it can until i've seen a competition and know how they work

that being said it also makes sense as xaul said, to play like its an elimination round, because you won't be on the same alliance the whole entire competition (from what i understand), and so if one of those top 8 teams is watching (and they will be), and sees that you have defensive capabilities they want on their alliance, it doesn't matter how you do in the seeding points standings if that makes sense...

my_Two_Cents+=2; //

[JohnFogarty]

WE made SUPER tank treads and they run with 4 CIM motors and 2 Toughboxes, i don't even think it's possible to push us xD

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by John_1102

WE made SUPER tank treads and they run with 4 CIM motors and 2 Toughboxes, i don't even think it's possible to push us xD

Sounds like a challange to me

[Peter Matteson]

Originally Posted by John_1102

WE made SUPER tank treads and they run with 4 CIM motors and 2 Toughboxes, i don't even think it's possible to push us xD

We've Heard that before.

[EricH]

Too bad Truck Town Thunder (FRC0068) won't be seeing you guys until Championships, if then.

NOBODY pushes Truck Town!

[Nevets Amstier]

Originally Posted by EricH

NOBODY pushes Truck Town!

http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv.../2007new_sf1m1

at around 0:48 listen to the announcer
oops

[JVN]

Originally Posted by Nevets Amstier

http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv.../2007new_sf1m1

at around 0:48 listen to the announcer
oops

The announcer was clearly mistaken.

[Chris is me]

Truck Town does not get pushed, they only allow their partners to assist their movement.

Though I find it odd that their best year ever (IRI win, national finalist) was a year where they had the same traction as everyone else...

Pushing is limited by either torque or traction. You really don't want to have a torque limited drivetrain (without shifting) as that can lead to extremely high current draws in pushing matches, and once you become traction limited you're "done" as far as increasing pushing force goes assuming an at weight robot. Ideal pushing force = high traction wheel + drivetrain gear ratio / motor combination to cause traction to be the limiting factor + 120 lbs.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, because then I have a robot to tweak...

[Meredith Novak]

Originally Posted by JVN

The announcer was clearly mistaken.

Dan? Mistaken? Never.

On the pushing question: We can drag JTN around the floor and he flaps like a flag in the wind

[hipsterjr]

Originally Posted by John_1102

WE made SUPER tank treads and they run with 4 CIM motors and 2 Toughboxes, i don't even think it's possible to push us xD

342 will see about that in Palmetto. Articulating 8 wheel drive baby, this thing has more stick than Spiderman covered in tar. While 1102 may put up a fight, I plan on seeing a fair number of mecanum bots getting shoved around if they aren't quick enough to get out of the way.
My $0.02

[Bill_B]

I hear about this pushing thing and I'm still wondering what this will do to help the alliance with the brute pushers on it. I suppose there might be an extreme scenario in which there is only one good scorer on an alliance, so pushing that robot around would be an advantage to the other alliance, but is that going to be common? Only one scorer, I mean? Unless your pusher is scoring at the same time it's pushing, you haven't achieved anything useful until it affects the score positively for your alliance. So far, it sounds like "kids" are merely transferring their playground experience indoors. Pushing for the sake of pushing - bah, phooey! Probably not GP either.