Kicking Clarification???

[Ziaholic]

This brings up something that has been on my mind for the past couple days.

The rules quoted above me have 2 different 2-second timers. So simply saying "2 seconds between kicks" is not entirely accurate (that is, if I'm interpreting them correctly)

The first timer starts when you break the plane of the frame perimeter, and the second timer starts when you retract back within the frame perimeter.

Unless your kicks take zero seconds, there's really no way to kick twice with only 2.0 seconds between them.

Which brings me to my reason for being in here ... our kicker is spring loaded. We have some "tethers" that will eliminate any chance of breaking out of the bumper zone, but immediately after the kick we will probably oscillate back and forth across the frame perimeter a few times before the grabber grabs it and brings it back for the 2nd shot.

At first, I was worried that we'd violate the first rule since our kicker will probably cross the frame perimeter a few times before we grab it again. After some head scratching, my team and I have surmised that as long as we reach out, grab, and retract the kicker within that first 2-second timer, then hold it inside for at least 2 seconds, then we're A-OK.

Thoughts?

[K Lenox]

that should work but ars long as you find a way to keep it inside the frame perimeter for those 2 seconds.

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Ziaholic

Which brings me to my reason for being in here ... our kicker is spring loaded. We have some "tethers" that will eliminate any chance of breaking out of the bumper zone, but immediately after the kick we will probably oscillate back and forth across the frame perimeter a few times before the grabber grabs it and brings it back for the 2nd shot.

This sounds illegal to me. The rule says

<G30> ROBOT Volume – During a MATCH, no part of the ROBOT shall extend outside the vertical projection of the FRAME PERIMETER, except as follows:
a. BALL Interaction Volume – Solely for the purposes of interacting with a BALL, MECHANISMS that are below the BUMPER may extend up to the BUMPER PERIMETER, for a period not exceeding two seconds. After returning inside the FRAMER PERIMETER, such MECHANISMS are not permitted to re-extend beyond the FRAME PERIMETER for at least two seconds.

After the mechanism returns inside the FRAME PERIMETER the first time, it cannot go outside the FRAME PERIMETER again for two seconds. So....if it goes out, then comes back in, it needs to wait two seconds before going out again. I think you'll need to control the oscillations. Or try limiting the travel so it cannot go past the frame perimeter--we found that we would not gain significant kicking distance with the extra 3" travel, so ours does not leave the frame.

[Ziaholic]

Originally Posted by squirrel

This sounds illegal to me. The rule says



After the mechanism returns inside the FRAME PERIMETER the first time, it cannot go outside the FRAME PERIMETER again for two seconds. So....if it goes out, then comes back in, it needs to wait two seconds before going out again. I think you'll need to control the oscillations. Or try limiting the travel so it cannot go past the frame perimeter--we found that we would not gain significant kicking distance with the extra 3" travel, so ours does not leave the frame.

(emphasis mine)

That's what I was worried about. My original concerns are exactly as you describe. I was later talked out of it by kinda' "lawyering" the phrase

... may extend up to the BUMPER PERIMETER, for a period not exceeding two seconds.

I was hoping that during that 2 seconds, a few back-and-forths across the line would be OK, then I'd hold it inside for another 2-second count to ensure compliance with the 2nd part of that rule.

Hmmm.

[EricH]

If y'all gotta lawyer the rule to be legal, then y'all should be reading the text at the beginning of Section 8.3:

When reading these rules, please use technical common sense (engineering thinking) rather than “lawyering” the interpretation and splitting hairs over the precise wording in an attempt to find loopholes. Try to understand the reasoning behind a rule."

2 seconds means 2 seconds. It doesn't mean "out for 1/8 second, in for 1/16 second, repeat until out of time, wait 2 seconds, do it all again".

[Ziaholic]

I think I'm convinced ...

When the kicker is put back together, we'll use our tether in both lengths and hope that the kick-distance isn't adversely affected.

I'm also going to put this into a Q&A question to get an official ruling.

[archwaykitten]

A lawyer looking at the rules would say that oscilating back and forth would be illegal, and they would be right according to the way the rule is worded.

As an engineer, I would think that oscilating back and forth a little is fine. You aren't breaking the spirit of any rules. The "no lawyering" thing has to work both ways, right?

But if you're really worried about it, and if controlling your oscilations proves complicated, you might try adding something to your kicker (or elsewhere) that will stick out beyond the plane during the oscillations. That way even though part of your kicker is oscillating in and out, your "full kicker aparatus" still only enters and exits once.

[Ziaholic]

Very interesting idea.

We'll take that into consideration.

thanks.