Withholding limits and GP

[Karthik]

Moderators Note: I've merged a few threads to keep all the pertinent posts and discussion on this topic in one spot.

[Bochek]

Okay so now that bills blog is saying we CAN NOT bring a fully assembled robot (weighing less then 65lbs)

but the GDC said there where no restrictions to what we held back.

IM GOING TO LOOSE HAIR OVER THIS ONE!!!! ARH! - sorry had to get that out.

A robot, is required to have bumpers no? so if we ship the bumpers then we don't have a fully assembled robot right?

we are bagging and tagging tomorow, and we have been planing on keeping the whole robot (minus the bumpers) ever since the 65lb weight increase.

GDC has not responded to the Q+A i posted about our regional directors email, nor to another mentors question on the same subject.

Sorry i really needed to vent. Comments?

[Bochek]

Alright, this has got me all fired up, so please cool me off here.

please read the following from bills blog:

Tomorrows Team Update will include the following: Rule , as amended in Team Update #11, permits the TEAM to utilize a 65 pound WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. The choice of which FABRICATED PARTS of the ROBOT are included in the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE is entirely up to the TEAM.

Please note that a ROBOT is an assembly of FABRICATED and COTS parts. Teams attending traditional events may not bring fully assembled ROBOTS to the competition. Teams attending bag & tag events may not bring a fully assembled ROBOT that has not been bagged. For both traditional and bag & tag events, teams may bring up to 65lbs of FABRICATED parts for use on the ROBOT, even if their ROBOT weighs less than 65lbs.

So under the withholding allowance, teams are only allowed to bring FABRICATED PARTS to the competition. So lets say i was working on component X, component X used a CIM motor, do i have to ship the CIM motor and not have one to test component X with?

Secondly. Reading the GDC's post here: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14653

There are no restrictions on what can and cannot be shipped when asked directly about keeping the entire robot. Is the GDC going back on their decision?

- Bochek

[seannoseworthy]

I'm disappointed with all the different opinions we are getting from a variety of people at first weather it be Bills blog, the GDC or our regional director there is really no clear option on to bag or not to bag. Ever since the 65 pound withholding limit and this post by the GDC all our decisions have been based on "we have five more weeks", in fact we are not working on our robot the day before ship day because of the snow, but we could have worked if we knew that we only had one day left. In conclusion i don't mind that we have to bag it, i do care though that we are learning about this the day before ship/bag day after being told its OK, Its a little too late to change.

[OptimusPrime]

Well... now it amounts to what consists of a "fully assembled robot" just to confuse the discussion further... ie... if a withholding allowance package is weighed in which consists of the sum parts of a partially disassembled robot, (as well as not including the bumpers which are bagged)...ie not a "fully assembled robot"... but one that can be assembled from the parts and is under the acceptable limit... egads! I thought the question was very politely and respectfully asked clearly indicating our intentions as we hold the concept of GP sacred. It's unfortunate we didn't get a simple "NO you can't do that" or a clearer guideline of what was acceptable in terms of the modified withholding limit. Now, in the 12th hour, it would seem to be an interpretation of the phrase "fully assembled ROBOT" and potentially risking an entire season on that interpretation as clearly there will not be any more time for further clarification.

[Bochek]

new GDC reply

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14773


I'm going to quote some definitions here.

WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE – A limited amount of FABRICATED ITEMS that are withheld from the ROBOT shipping requirements (specified in Section 4) and retained by the team following the shipping deadlines.

FABRICATED ITEM – Any COMPONENT or MECHANISM that has been altered, built, cast, constructed, concocted, created, cut, heat treated, machined, manufactured, modified, painted, produced, surface coated, or conjured partially or completely into the final form in which it will be used on the ROBOT.

COMPONENT – A ROBOT part in its most basic configuration, which can not be disassembled without damaging or destroying the part, or altering its fundamental function.



What does it mean to conjure an item into the final form in which it will be used on the ROBOT? If you assemble some COTS parts to a fabricated part, is the assembly a FABRICATED ITEM now?

[Bochek]

my last question to the GDC (this year), i swear!


WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE – A limited amount of FABRICATED ITEMS that are withheld from the ROBOT shipping requirements (specified in Section 4) and retained by the team following the shipping deadlines.

FABRICATED ITEM – Any COMPONENT or MECHANISM that has been altered, built, cast, constructed, concocted, created, cut, heat treated, machined, manufactured, modified, painted, produced, surface coated, or conjured partially or completely into the final form in which it will be used on the ROBOT.

COMPONENT – A ROBOT part in its most basic configuration, which can not be disassembled without damaging or destroying the part, or altering its fundamental function.

MECHANISM – A COTS or custom assembly of COMPONENTS that provide specific functionality on the ROBOT. A MECHANISM can be disassembled (and then reassembled) into individual COMPONENTS without damage to the parts.


What does it mean to conjure an item into the final form in which it will be used on the ROBOT? If you assemble some COTS parts to and some FABRICATED ITEMS, is the "assembly" a FABRICATED ITEM now or is it a MECHANISM? Would this be a legal item to bring under the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE

[Kims Robot]

I'm getting the feeling we are going to either see a bunch of disqualified teams, or a bunch of "boxes of parts" on the field. This is complete insanity. Normally I don't really get frustrated with the GDC but this is just terrible, I wish they would explain their reasoning instead of changing everything 20 times and parroting back things that we have already read.

Penfield has a bunch of robot crates that have been sitting there since Sunday afternoon, thank goodness all those teams decided to SHIP their robots... had they followed the rules that were in place on Sunday they might have been in trouble!!

Im now thinking that after we ship they will tell us that we arent allowed to bring mechanisms, even though mechanisms are fabricated items... we will have to disassemble and reassemble them at the regional... anyone smell battery cables????

[Bochek]

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

I'm getting the feeling we are going to either see a bunch of disqualified teams, or a bunch of "boxes of parts" on the field. This is complete insanity. Normally I don't really get frustrated with the GDC but this is just terrible, I wish they would explain their reasoning instead of changing everything 20 times and parroting back things that we have already read.

Penfield has a bunch of robot crates that have been sitting there since Sunday afternoon, thank goodness all those teams decided to SHIP their robots... had they followed the rules that were in place on Sunday they might have been in trouble!!

Im now thinking that after we ship they will tell us that we arent allowed to bring mechanisms, even though mechanisms are fabricated items... we will have to disassemble and reassemble them at the regional... anyone smell battery cables????

Thank you for seeing things from my, and my teams, point of view. Knowledge that we're not crazy is helpful.

You might also find this post helpful:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14797

I would just like to add, that tomorrow, we will not be shipping/bagging a robot. but instead a few parts. We believe that the GDC is not quite sure how to rule on this, so take our chances we will. We will see what they say in week 4.

[XaulZan11]

Personally, I wouldn't take the chance on wasting 6...I mean 10... weeks I spent building a robot on whether or not FIRST understands and would enforce their rule. But, its your time, not mine.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Hold on there guys. The change to 65 pounds of withholding was announced in the Team update dated February 16. That is less than ten days ago. The GDC answers in the Q&A were dated the 16th and the 19th. It was the answers from the 19th that you are upset about and according to my watch that was a mere 5 days ago if you include the 19th. You can't make me believe you were planning to keep your robot and ship some parts based on something you knew in your heart wasn't the norm. Considering it occurred just a few days ago as opposed to kickoff, this should not affect your plans or your robot construction. 65 pounds is a lot of stuff to be able to bring with you. That alone is a gift for teams that have been able to work on their robot continuously during the build season and to help teams that have been locked out of their shops due to weather and school closings. Of all the things that have changed over the years, ship date has meant ship your ROBOT. Quite frankly I am going to view the majority of this thread as end of build exhaustion and nothing more. Get some sleep.

[GaryVoshol]

It was clear from the start that you had to ship a robot:

4.1 OVERVIEW
FRC teams ship their robots to ensure that all teams have an equal amount of time to build, test and modify their robots. Robots are shipped to the drayage site for the first event that your team will attend and then shipped to any subsequent events.*
This section provides information regarding shipping and associated requirements, the drayage system, crate specifications and an introduction to the FedEx® shipping donation. Please make sure those persons responsible for shipping your team’s robot understand and follow the rules in this chapter. Following the guidelines will ensure that your robot arrives where it needs to be on time, so that your team can focus on the important thing – participating in the event!
*Please note
4.2 ROBOT SHIP DAY : Teams planning to attend a Bag and Tag Event will have specific requirements – please read this entire chapter!*
All Robots must be out of the teams’ hands before midnight local time on ROBOT SHIP DAY.

Section 8.2 defines ROBOT:

ROBOT - A FRC ROBOT is a remotely operated vehicle designed and built by a FRC team to perform specific tasks when competing in the 2010 competition “Breakaway.” The ROBOT must include all the basic systems required to be an active participant in the game – power, communications, control, mobility, and actuation. The ROBOT implementation must obviously follow a design approach intended to play the 2010 FRC game (e.g. a box of unassembled parts placed on the FIELD, or a ROBOT designed to play a different game, would not satisfy this definition).

The withholding allowance permits a team to not ship parts of their robot. But nowhere does it say you can retain the whole robot:

WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE – A limited amount of FABRICATED ITEMS that are withheld from the ROBOT shipping requirements (specified in Section 4) and retained by the team following the shipping deadlines. These items are then hand-carried to a competition event by the team. The OPERATOR CONSOLE is automatically included in the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. Beyond that, the incoming material maximums specified in Rule <R38> limits the amount of FABRICATED ITEMS included in the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE.

People are basing their opinion of withholding the whole robot on this Q&A: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14653 Answers on 2/16 and 2/19. The problem is the GDC never completely answered the first question, "Could the team ship just the bumpers? and keep the robot under the withholding allowance?" Instead, their answer was that teams could decide which parts of the robot they chose to withhold. I believe this is an unfortunate case of the GDC knowing what they wanted to say, but not saying it clearly. Edit: My initial reaction was, "Oh, 'any parts' means it could be the whole robot." But that's not what the GDC had in mind, and Bill's blog reporting on Update 13 corrects that misunderstanding.

As I understand it, you have to ship a robot, but you don't have to ship a whole robot. What parts of the robot you choose not to ship are up to you. But you can't bring a complete robot into the event with you. What you bring with you must be missing at least one of the parts listed in the ROBOT definition.

[IndySam]

Because of the really bad weather Bill and the GDC try to help teams out by throwing them a bone and as a result this $%#& storm erupts.

I hope you folks don't expect them to be so magnanimous in the future.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

As I understand it, you have to ship a robot, but you don't have to ship a whole robot. What parts of the robot you choose not to ship are up to you. But you can't bring a complete robot into the event with you. What you bring with you must be missing at least one of the parts listed in the ROBOT definition.

So if a team brings a 64lb. robot without its wireless gaming adapter (thus missing the communication aspect that defines a ROBOT), they would be legal? It seems like it's easy enough for these teams to do basically what they want while satisfying the rules, so what's the problem?

[Bochek]

Originally Posted by jgannon

So if a team brings a 64lb. robot without its wireless gaming adapter (thus missing the communication aspect that defines a ROBOT), they would be legal? It seems like it's easy enough for these teams to do basically what they want while satisfying the rules, so what's the problem?

Exactly what we are doing, a robot isnt a Robot Untill it has the bumpers, digital sidecar and Signal Light installed.