Team Update #13

[dlavery]

Team Update #13 is out and available here. This should hopefully fully explain the limits and opportunities of the revised withholding allowance, and let some folks calm down a bit.




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[Brandon Holley]

I think the GDC is being fairly clear here. They do not want the 65 lb withholding allowance to be an entire robot. By them adding the provision in, that if teams wish to bring in a "robot" it must be in multiple unfinished sections sends a very clear message to me of what they want teams to be doing.

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Team Update #13 is out and available here. This should hopefully fully explain the limits and opportunities of the revised withholding allowance, and let some folks calm down a bit.




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We understand that this may appear artificially restrictive and confusing. We are not trying to be excessively particular in this area. There are specific restrictions (e.g. contractual requirements, union rules, etc.) on how complete ROBOTS are delivered to competition venues, and how they are loaded into the venues, that limit our flexibility in this area. We ask for your understanding and patience as we work through these requirements.

Nicely stated (imho). The whole rule but the example above in particular. I believe this is an excellent example of how to diffuses potentially problematic rulings.

First of all, most folks have no idea about the various constraints that FIRST is under with regard to rules, ship dates, etc.

I love that FIRST helps to educate the masses to the larger picture.

Second, I think the explanation above is great not because it explains everything, it doesn't, but because it hints at larger issues that FIRST has to consider, acknowledges that the solution is less than ideal and then asks for forbearance.

Nice. I think more rulings of this flavor and tone will go a long way to help us understand the way things work and (perhaps) accept the less than perfect world we all inhabit.

Joe J.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

Second, I think the explanation above is great not because it explains everything, it doesn't, but because it hints at larger issues that FIRST has to consider, acknowledges that the solution is less than ideal and then asks for forbearance.

Nice. I think more rulings of this flavor and tone will go a long way to help us understand the way things work and (perhaps) accept the less than perfect world we all inhabit.

Joe J.

I'm always surprised how, when the gate appears to open, so many rush through - creating chaos and blocking the open channel. Or, when things change, so many get up in arms. Or, when help/relief is offered, minds narrow instead of expanding. The larger issues are always there and have always been there. I agree that this helps all of us remember that those exist and when trying to help/add a little relief, those still have to be respected and worked with. (I include myself in forgetting to remember the bigger picture at times and for that, I am sorry.)

Jane

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

I think the GDC is being fairly clear here. They do not want the 65 lb withholding allowance to be an entire robot. By them adding the provision in, that if teams wish to bring in a "robot" it must be in multiple unfinished sections sends a very clear message to me of what they want teams to be doing.

I am not sure I agree with you, exactly. It seems to me that they don't LIKE it, they never INTENDED it, but they will ALLOW it (assuming you take the bother to disassemble it into at least two FABRICATED ITEMS before carrying it in* ).

I will not criticize a team that follows this rule to the letter any more than I will criticize a team that is .001" under the size limit or .01 lb under the weight limit. We go up to the line, we don't cross.

Callin' 'em as I see 'em.

Joe J.

*which, by they way, I can tell you truly, I am pretty sure every robot I've ever put in the shipping container would have been able to limbo under that bar ;-)

[dtengineering]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

Nicely stated (imho). The whole rule but the example above in particular. I believe this is an excellent example of how to diffuses potentially problematic rulings.

Yeah... what Joe says. Thank you, GDC for the explanation.

Jason

[RobertG]

I find this slightly funny because it appears that the GDC has created a loophole (teams must transport their robot in two pieces) to get around their own set of "restrictions".

[GaryVoshol]

It's unfortunate that this couldn't have been made clear a week ago, when the first question of "can we bring in a whole, lightweight robot?" was answered in Q&A. I understand that it is possible that the details were not finalized then. But all in all this has been a frustrating situation for some teams and the GDC.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by RobertG

I find this slightly funny because it appears that the GDC has created a loophole (teams must transport their robot in two pieces) to get around their own set of "restrictions".

It would seem FIRST has its own set of lawyers. But I agree this is a good ruling.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

I am not sure I agree with you, exactly. It seems to me that they don't LIKE it, they never INTENDED it, but they will ALLOW it (assuming you take the bother to disassemble it into at least two FABRICATED ITEMS before carrying it in* ).

I believe you misunderstood me Joe. I should have been more clear with my post. The point of my post was to say that it's clear to me FIRST does not want teams to bring in entire robots. The reason I feel it's clear is because of the fact that they want teams to take apart functioning systems and reassemble them at the competition. That seems like a goofy idea (ie: battery cables last year) but it's goofy because they do not want teams doing it

[gburlison]

I am just glad this update was published before before we shipped our robot.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by gburlison

I am just glad this update was published before before we shipped our robot.

Even if you didn't, you're still fine. As I replied to a Facebook post about it:

This is so not an issue. Remove one FABRICATED ITEM--a hose from your pneumatics system you've cut to length, a bracket, a panel you velcroed on for sponsors--and you now have, as quoted from TU13, "a collection of two or more separate FABRICATED ITEMS in a less-than-complete state of assembly."

At no point did it say that on-site final assembly had to be hard or significant.

[Bill_B]

I would not be surprised to learn that the major clue to the assembly ruling is to be found in the GDC's comment about union rules at (some of?) the various venues. Stage hands and electricians have worked hard to preserve their work environments. The venues involved with FIRST tournaments make use of that labor under very specific conditions, almost certainly not the same at every location. Perhaps there is a rule about the handling of event equipment at one or more of them that requires the robots to enter the venue in pieces. We might be looking at the "least common denominator" of venue rules for machinery. That is, everyone must split up the robot because one or more events requires it.

[Kims Robot]

Originally Posted by gburlison

I am just glad this update was published before before we shipped our robot.

As far as I know 1511 & 8 other robots were driven to drayage BEFORE this was published. Fortunately, I think all were shipping "ROBOTS"... but I still see this Update as very Muddy... as a regional director I could read that and say, "oh a team CANT bring a Robot in"... as the GDC didnt say "take one fabricated item off your robot and its no longer a "Robot"". I forsee a handful of arguments with volunteers...

Im hoping that all the regionals get a clear email blast that gives an undeniably straightforward answer to this rule, or I still feel we may have a handful of upset teams that think they cant play on the first day on our hands... The volunteers checking people in often dont follow every Q&A or every update, so they will only do as told... hopefully they are clearly told what is and isnt allowed.

Lucky number 13....

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

... but I still see this Update as very Muddy...

Really? It seems about as clear as it can be to me. I've seen GDC mud before... ...this ain't it ;-)

Provide a case or scenario and I believe that you can make a ruling based upon the text. I don't think you will have any difficulty making a ruling.

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

as a regional director I could read that and say, "oh a team CANT bring a Robot in"... as the GDC didnt say "take one fabricated item off your robot and its no longer a "Robot"". I forsee a handful of arguments with volunteers...

Actually this is what they said:

"For all events (both traditional and bag & tag events), for those few cases where the complete ROBOT weighs less than 65 pounds, teams may bring up to 65 pounds of separate FABRICATED ITEMS which can be assembled into the final assembly of the full ROBOT once you are on-site. But they must be brought to the competition venue as a collection of two or more separate FABRICATED ITEMS in a less-than-complete state of assembly."

So... I don't want to put words into the GDC's mouths (especially since I am on record as liking what they said and how they said it) but, in effect, they didn't say "no robots." They said "no completely assembled robots."

It may not be the rule that you, or I or the volunteers like but it is a very clear rule (imho).

On a personal note, given that my team was snowed out and unable to even get access to our robot for almost 2 weeks while the school was locked down, I think the GDC did a good thing in increasing the withholding limit to 65lbs.

I know that it is not the ideal situation, but we do not live in an ideal world. The GDC had to play the hand they were dealt and I think they did about as good of a job as can be expected.

If the worst thing that happens is a few teams get an "unfair" advantage by keeping their whole (under 65lbs) robot until their 1st competition, I can live with it. I hope that you can as well.


Joe J.