Team Update #14

[EricH]

http://usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Rob...pdate%2014.pdf

This one really throws a wrinkle into the pinning rule... and expands the acceptable wireless operation zone.

[JHSmentor]

Sounds similar to 2008 where they were making it tough to play defense in an aggressive way. That had the affect of encouraging team play and scoring as well as making teams think of new ways and strategies for playing defense without getting penalized.

I see many different ways of playing defense this year other than pinning so it will be interesting to see how it goes.

[Chris is me]

How does that change things? I guess it means you don't have to be 6 feet away for 3 whole seconds, so the pinning victim can't extend it's own safety window?

Wireless practice fields! <3

[Alex Cormier]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

How does that change things? I guess it means you don't have to be 6 feet away for 3 whole seconds, so the pinning victim can't extend it's own safety window?

Wireless practice fields! <3

You still need to back away 6 feet for 3 seconds. It's one of those things like "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Why do they feel the need to change things that don't need to be changed?

[EricH]

It means that the pin count doesn't stop as soon as you break contact like it used to; with speeds that robots travel, this effectively takes the pin count from 5 seconds to 4 seconds before the robots need to separate.

[Greg Needel]

They might have well said "no pinning is permitted" If it takes your bot 1 second to travel 6 feel then you establish a pin then hold for 4 seconds and have to drive away.

There are 2 problems I have with this is 1) it gives the refs another thing to pass a judgment on ie. What is 6 feet. Before the count itself was always in question but now they have to judge time and distance. and 2) what happens if the robot who is pinned makes it impossible for your robot to get 6 feet away, or in another case if you are trapped in by another robot 4 ft behind you.

I understand the intent of the rule is to discourage pinning a team to completely shut down scoring, but i am not sure they didn't open up Pandora's box of bad/tough calls by the implementation of this rule.

[Radical Pi]

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

2) what happens if the robot who is pinned makes it impossible for your robot to get 6 feet away, or in another case if you are trapped in by another robot 4 ft behind you.

I'd think that would fall under a penalty forced by another robot so no penalty. Could be some interesting calls though

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

They might have well said "no pinning is permitted" If it takes your bot 1 second to travel 6 feel then you establish a pin then hold for 4 seconds and have to drive away.

There are 2 problems I have with this is 1) it gives the refs another thing to pass a judgment on ie. What is 6 feet. Before the count itself was always in question but now they have to judge time and distance. and 2) what happens if the robot who is pinned makes it impossible for your robot to get 6 feet away, or in another case if you are trapped in by another robot 4 ft behind you.

I understand the intent of the rule is to discourage pinning a team to completely shut down scoring, but i am not sure they didn't open up Pandora's box of bad/tough calls by the implementation of this rule.

Agreed.
In what seems to be such a low scoring game, additional (and questionable) ref calls could cause some serious discontent.

[sgreco]

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

They might have well said "no pinning is permitted" If it takes your bot 1 second to travel 6 feel then you establish a pin then hold for 4 seconds and have to drive away.

There are 2 problems I have with this is 1) it gives the refs another thing to pass a judgment on ie. What is 6 feet. Before the count itself was always in question but now they have to judge time and distance. and 2) what happens if the robot who is pinned makes it impossible for your robot to get 6 feet away, or in another case if you are trapped in by another robot 4 ft behind you.

I understand the intent of the rule is to discourage pinning a team to completely shut down scoring, but i am not sure they didn't open up Pandora's box of bad/tough calls by the implementation of this rule.

Completely agreed. I understand the intent as well, but I think the fewer rules the better. We'll see how it plays out, but I love watching and playing defense, and I don't think discouraging it is the right way to go. I think defence should just be part of the game and teams should need to make their robots able to win pushing battles or be pushed. It's something teams should have to keep in mind in design and it makes the game more fun.

That said, I'm sure the GDC had a good reason, and I can't say I have thought about the game and what it needs to any degree near comparable to the people on the GDC.

[kmitchell]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

How does that change things? I guess it means you don't have to be 6 feet away for 3 whole seconds, so the pinning victim can't extend it's own safety window?

Wireless practice fields! <3

In order to run wireless on the practice field teams will be required to use a FIRST issued radio on the practice field that has been paired with the practice field router. Teams will not be allowed (or able) to run on the practice field with their own team radio.

While this is better it still does not allow teams to verify that their radio is configured properly and functioning before they arrive at the playing field. [Edit: That is what the first practice match is for]

[IBdrummer]

Well i guess that rule makes the game a lot more like soccer in a sense. A pinned robot who has the ability to keep themselves within 6 ft of the other robot can try to draw the foul by chasing the pinner. Lol, instead of dramatic soccer players acting hurt there will be robot follow the leader

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by IBdrummer

Well i guess that rule makes the game a lot more like soccer in a sense. A pinned robot who has the ability to keep themselves within 6 ft of the other robot can try to draw the foul by chasing the pinner. Lol, instead of dramatic soccer players acting hurt there will be robot follow the leader

Incorrect as per <G13>

<G13> Causing PENALTIES – The actions of an ALLIANCE shall not cause an opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule and thus incur PENALTIES. Any rule violations committed by the affected ALLIANCE shall be excused, and no PENALTIES will be assigned.

By keeping themselves purposely within 6 feet they are attempting to cause the other alliance a penalty, and thus excusing them from said penalty.

[Bill_B]

6 feet won't be that hard to estimate. It's 2xlong side of robots and 3x short sides of most robots on the field.

As to pining about no pinning - back off brutes! I've been reading various brags about how they're not going to be pushed or push people all over the field. Perhaps it comes from too much exposure to the many electronic games that emphasize anti-social gaming.

I think it's good that the game be compared to soccer. Just imagine if it were more like rugby! That would be a game for the heavy duty pushing machines all right. You've heard that soccer is a gentleman's game played by ruffians, while rugby is the ruffian's game played by gentlemen. Maybe next year for the rugby-like frame-crunching FRC game?

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Bill_B

As to pining about no pinning - back off brutes! I've been reading various brags about how they're not going to be pushed or push people all over the field. Perhaps it comes from too much exposure to the many electronic games that emphasize anti-social gaming.

Or perhaps it comes from people remembering 2007 where defense was a huge factor and had similar pinning rules. Like it or not, I think defense will be a factor.

[Nawaid Ladak]

FIRST is really pushing this game to be more like soccer. Lets just hope the FIRSTer's don't take the forthcoming questionable calls too seriously...

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Incorrect as per <G13>



By keeping themselves purposely within 6 feet they are attempting to cause the other alliance a penalty, and thus excusing them from said penalty.

If another robot is intentionally trying to push you while their pinned. Would <G11> be enforced. In other words. to be essentially counted as pinned. Would one have to either a) stop moving or b) try to move AWAY from the other robot?