Team Update #14

[Nick Lawrence]

Gee, this gets more like real soccer with every day that passes!

-Nick

[dtengineering]

Pinning only happens when a team is stuck against a field element. You can bump and grind in the middle of the field to your heart's content.

The matches could actually be pretty boring without some kind of pinning rule, so even though we've built a drive train with "physical interaction" in mind, I'm happy to comply with any reasonable rule on pinning.

Jason

[Tom Line]

I can't say I like this very much.

In 2007, with a "small" field (basically cut in half because of the rack) swerves and mechanums advantages were largely removed. They didn't have the distance or time to maneuver, and this made it possible to take a not-so-great robot and play defense on them reasonably well. This made the games closer and more strategic.

With the field cut in 3rds this year, you have even less room. Yes, swerves and mechanum are nice to get to that ball, but their drawback has always been lack of power and ability to be pinned (some swerves overcame that).

This played a huge roll in our drivetrain and our gearing selections this year. We figured on close in battles and a ton of defense in those little 1/3 size fields, and sized our drivetrain accordingly.

Now, I'm looking at this and wishing we had known at the beginning of the season that hard-nose defense on a good "O" bot wasn't going to be as effective. We may very well have gone down a different road.

Oh well. Another opportunity to improve!

[Justin Montois]

"Somehow, Section 7, Rev I still doesn’t have the changes issued in Team Update 10 (and subsequently, 11) incorporated. Third time’s a charm."

I lol'd

In regards to the pinning rule, I like it. I was afraid that elims were going to be a defense fest as it is. I would like to see some high scoring mathes in Elims but as Car Nack predicted, there's a high probability that Quals will have higher scores.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

I can't say I like this very much.

In 2007, with a "small" field (basically cut in half because of the rack) swerves and mechanums advantages were largely removed. They didn't have the distance or time to maneuver, and this made it possible to take a not-so-great robot and play defense on them reasonably well. This made the games closer and more strategic.

With the field cut in 3rds this year, you have even less room. Yes, swerves and mechanum are nice to get to that ball, but their drawback has always been lack of power and ability to be pinned (some swerves overcame that).

This played a huge roll in our drivetrain and our gearing selections this year. We figured on close in battles and a ton of defense in those little 1/3 size fields, and sized our drivetrain accordingly.

Now, I'm looking at this and wishing we had known at the beginning of the season that hard-nose defense on a good "O" bot wasn't going to be as effective. We may very well have gone down a different road.

Oh well. Another opportunity to improve!

Tom,

Hard nosed defense doesn't mean pinning always. And hard nosed defense will be effective, just different.

The game just became a little (1 second) more fluid and defense now must be a bit more agile.

TBH, I believe that once you get into the elims, good defense will be king.

[GoSparx]

Man no one's ever happy, huh?

[lenny8]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Tom,

Hard nosed defense doesn't mean pinning always. And hard nosed defense will be effective, just different.

The game just became a little (1 second) more fluid and defense now must be a bit more agile.

TBH, I believe that once you get into the elims, good defense will be king.

my point exactly hard nose defense is all about making the other person feel uncomfortable and cause them to make mistakes.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Bill_B

As to pining about no pinning - back off brutes! I've been reading various brags about how they're not going to be pushed or push people all over the field. Perhaps it comes from too much exposure to the many electronic games that emphasize anti-social gaming.

As a team that plans on playing a lot of effective defense, I'm just a bit offended at the implied anti-social tendencies of my teammates and myself solely because we think pushing a robot aside to get to a ball is a good idea in a game full of mecanum and other lower-traction drives. "Physical" interaction has been a part of FRC for every year that isn't 2001, and I don't want my team being called funny names just because we interact with our opponents to help an alliance succeed. (Not very anti-social to me...)

---

With Update 14, I hope teams remember that there are other ways to play defense rather than pure immobilization!

[Rick]

It appears that FIRST has realized through the pre-ship scrimmages that this will be a very low scoring game and changed pinning to encourage scoring.

Breakaway is a good game, but only when there is scoring on the field. Week 1 events will certainly not be the exciting soccer matches that FIRST envisioned spectators would enjoy, but will improve greatly as the weeks go on.

[Mr.G]

Now it says no pinning against a field element. The floor is not a field element, but is the bump?

[EricH]

It's always said "field element". That's not a change.

As for whether the bump counts as a field element, there was discussion on that previously--inconclusive, IIRC. Looking at the Q&A, I can't find anything either.

I would say that it probably does, being part of the field and all (as opposed to being a game piece or a robot), but I'm not 100% certain, and I don't think anyone has specifically asked Q&A for a ruling.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Mr.G

Another large rule change after ship that if teams know ahead many might have changed there design. Come on GDC.

Now it says no pinning against a field element. The floor is not a field element, but is the bump?

1> please quote the rule that states no pinning against a field element. All the GDC did was redefine how the timing of pinning is to be determined, and it didn't change much.

2> The bump is, and always has been, part of the field. As such, teams can (and will) be pinned against it.

None of these will stop effective defense. Good defensive teams will keep offensive teams from just lining up and shooting.

Now lets all just take a deep breath. Things aren't as bad as it seems ... really.

I find it a complete waste of time to whine about rule changes, and a much better use of my time making sure my team knows the rules and knows how to play all aspects of the game (defense included) within those rules. I might suggest others do the same.

[Mr.G]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

1> please quote the rule that states no pinning against a field element. All the GDC did was redefine how the timing of pinning is to be determined, and it didn't change much.

Sorry you are correct. I read the update as they just added the 6 foot rule.

We aren't a defence team and never have been. Some teams are and I would hate to see a major rule change for them that effects their design.