Vote to change the format of FIRST.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Mr.G

And these are the teams that win it all. EVERY YEAR.

Yep. And there isn't a darn thing you can do about it.

Look at the resources teams like Chickens, Simbotics, Robowranglers, etc have. Full practice fields. A full crew of professional mentors. Top notch fab facilities ready to donate their time. Huge funding. Etc. Etc.

No amount of extra work time is going to help. Indeed, my team is absolutely physically and mentally exhausted by the end of the build season. Suggesting extending it even more is, quite frankly, about as appealing as shoving sharp implements under my fingernails, and I know my teammates agree.

On top of that, extending the build season only allows those superfunded and super-mentored teams to further widen the gap. You think you can get more done with an extra week or two? Think about what THOSE teams could do with another two weeks.

Any additional time you gain gives all the other teams the same amount of time. It doesn't serve to level the playing field. Indeed, one of the biggest lessons you take from first is about time management. Tradeoffs. Working under pressure.

I'll take it just the way it is.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

Because the week 5 robots were in their shops getting fined tuned for competition for weeks while week one teams had one week to get ready to compete. How is that fair?

I hate to point this out, but with the withholding amounts allowed every year, most even reasonably funded teams never stop working.

I remember, for instance, in 2008 at the Detroit Regional. We watched Team 27 (Rush) walk past our pits with nearly every kid carrying SOMETHING for that robot. From fabricated parts to raw materials. By the end of that competition, they were able to pull off the "shot heard round First" when they fired diagonally with 3 seconds to go and scored a hurdle from the other side of the field.

The good teams aren't good by chance. They don't stop working. Ever. Even if it's only making prints, trying them out in the shop, then building them at the regional.

Heck, there are teams that schedule out-of-Michigan regionals the first week or two so they can get their robot working perfectly before beginning the in-state events.

I'll say it again - good teams NEVER stop working on their bot. There is always something you can improve. A week 5 "bot" should be no different than a week 1 bot. If we're talking about both in week 5.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

Think about what THOSE teams could do with another two weeks.

Stop it, Tom. Just stop.


I don't need nightmares the night before the start of the NJ regional.

[bigbeezy]

ill admit i used to feel somewhat the same way, "how's it fair if x team gets all this stuff, and y team gets nothing," but lets face it life's not fair. Get used to it.

The whole point of the 6 week build season is to force you to work toward a dead line. Just like in the real world. If you're working for Company ABC and are competing against Company XYZ for a government contract, should ABC be given extra time if they don't have as elaborate facilities as XYZ? Of course not, both companies would have to compete to the best of their ability with whatever facilities and staff they have, utilizing their strengths in the best possible way.

The same holds true for FIRST. Do I wish my team had the facilities as others? Yes. But you know what? When my team beats those teams and has said teams come up asking to be picked in the finals, all I do is smile. Because I know we busted our butts for 6 weeks to make the best possible 'bot we could, and we can still run with the big boys.

[waialua359]

Perhaps I cant change the mind of the OP about the current format of FIRST, but I will say this.
We raise arguably the most money of any FRC team and we are proud of it. If you saw where we come from, the hoops we need to jump through year round, and the amount of blood, sweat and tears, you might feel otherwise. This wasnt some 1 year project to get where we are now, it took us 10 long years.
Our situation is a committed choice and not something we influenced or tried to change in our favor.
Personally, I'm really not jealous of any good team in FIRST. I'm happy for them, and take a page out of their books to see how we can better impact our students in the future. The competitions are meant to inspire!

[PWelsh]

I disagree that the FIRST format needs to be changed. This program has been around for many years and yes there are some "powerhouse" teams out there. These teams however were not given their success they earned the success they have with hard work and dedication. I came from a team that had plenty of sponsors and we went to two regionals and nationals every year. Now i am on a third year team and we only have money to go to one regional. I personally do not think FIRST should change their format to make it easier for my team to succeed. We will go through all the same roads that teams have done in the past to see our success and become a "powerhouse" team. Just my personal opinion of how teams should over come problems and make sure their teams succeed.

Phillip Welsh

[JaneYoung]

If we always look at the bottom, we never see the benefits of the top. Or the sides - left-right-inside-outside-allaroundside...

Take some time to browse through the library of white papers that are here in Chief Delphi and look at the people/teams that develop and write those white papers. Several of those top teams that many aspire to be - share - their knowledge and expertise. If you are attending the Championship this year, attend the conferences and you will see that several of those top teams that many aspire to be - take the time to put together a presentation and - share - their expertise/knowledge. Part of the expertise that they share - is the journey to where they are - now. Much of the inspiration and innovation that is respected and valued is found in the steps taken on the journey. The competitions that the teams participate in, are and were part of that journey.

Another aspect of this is change. I'm not seeing much discussion about that. FRC is becoming old enough now, that we are seeing high school graduates returning as mentors on teams, with their college degree(s) under their belts, having established, or, in the process of establishing careers. Because of their past experiences in FRC, they are ready to hit the ground running, with skill sets in place and toolboxes - full. The toolboxes don't necessarily hold just the tools to build the robot, they hold the tools to build the team.

We are also seeing teams reap the benefits of experience in FLL, FTC, VEX, BEST, and other robotic competitions. Students who were/are members of those teams - are bringing those experiences to the table. How does that help a FRC team? It strengthens it. Immediately if not sooner. Does the team still have the journey? Yes. But - not necessarily the same journey that the older teams have had. The older teams cut through the brush, creating the path. The newer/younger teams can follow the now well-worn path or branch off on a new one.

I'm happy for teams who find the ways and means to travel to multiple regionals/competitions. I honestly have no idea how they manage it and manage their other responsibilities such as school, work, family... but they manage. I'm also happy for teams who are learning the benefits of traveling to more than one regional. 418 is one of those. We have learned a lot in the past year and it has benefited our team, but it took us a long time to get to the point where we could seriously think about a 2nd regional. I'm also happy for teams who travel to one competition. It's what they do - for whatever reason. They show up and they compete - and they've had the experience of the build season, and perhaps the year's work and planning, to celebrate together as a team.

There is always going to be a top and a bottom and something in between. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing wrong with it. It is part of the journey. What can help is working together more in our areas/regions, sharing our knowledge and expertise in support of each other. The top teams can't do it all. They can't pull the load for the rest of us.

Jane

[EricH]

I'm going to put in what I said one of the other times this came up, back in 2005. The full thread is at http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=40124.

Originally Posted by EricH

Hmm...I think I'll take robot-drying lessons from dlavery.

Seriously, transporting the robot without the crate is difficult at best. I mean, you need at least an SUV, if not a full-size van. Plus you need the tools. Now, you put them all in a crate and they are protected. Remove that requirement, and suddenly your shipping costs are reduced, but you need someone with a large vehicle to take robot and tools, then the people that vehicle can hold are shifted to others...not to mention that fact that if you use an open trailer, the weather may get to it (not that heat could not affect the robot in a van or anything), and then you may need a bailer for the robot. So now teams need lots of spare parts, and their costs go up due to making them. Plus extra transportation. You get the picture.

Also, wasn't this rule used way back in the day? If so, why did FIRST change it (if you know)?

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

I could say that the decline in the population of pirates is responsible for global warming, the statistics correlate, but its obvious there's no causation there.

Really? The presence of a correlation does not preclude causation, either. That you cannot discern the linkage between pirate population and global warming doesn't mean that it does not exist. Of course, you are also reifying "pirate" and "global warming" -- a pair of assumptions that themselves require proof.

This logic stuff can give you a headache if you pursue it too far. Let's build robots!

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

Really? The presence of a correlation does not preclude causation, either. That you cannot discern the linkage between pirate population and global warming doesn't mean that it does not exist. Of course, you are also reifying "pirate" and "global warming" -- a pair of assumptions that themselves require proof.

This logic stuff can give you a headache if you pursue it too far. Let's build robots!

Fair enough on global warming, but you debate the existence of pirates?

[ratdude747]

i disagree. it will cause week 1 regionals to be abandoned. some teams cannot afford to take the robot themselves.

[nikeairmancurry]

Originally Posted by ratdude747

i disagree. it will cause week 1 regionals to be abandoned. some teams cannot afford to take the robot themselves.

Can't abandoned them.. regionals can only house so many teams.. teams will end up there reguardless