A novel strategy: Always score for your opponents

[waialua359]

I dont agree with this.
Scoring 4 for yourself and scoring 2 for the other team across the field is easier said than done.
IMO, you only need 1 scoring bot in the near zone and an effective defensive/shoot balls over the bump mechanism to win a week 1 regional!

[Swampdude]

I can see where duking it out with no defense will screw the loser if this becomes the norm. Knowing this the loser would always opt to help the winner. So it doesn't make sense to try and outright win unless you know for certain that you can AND the other team WILL score some points for them in your benefit to cover some of your penalties.

So now, it seems to me if you could get an agreement from all 6 teams to score for the team that has hangers. Plus give the losing team 1 or 2 points to cover the winning teams penalties, then you would have assurance from everyone that it was reasonable to cooperate from the beginning, hence optimize the assured seeding and coopertition points. Otherwise playing chicken with them will just lower everyone's points.

There's some logistical issues. It's going to get crowded at the winning teams goals. So put your 2 best herders there, the mid field bots can make shots, the far bots just help move balls forward then help if they can or just stay out of the way. Then the winning team hangers hang making more room for the other bots to move in and continue scoring till the end. This could make a consistent 15-20 point seeding/coopertition score for both teams fairly reasonable.

I think this is worth proposing, but the purists will spit on you. And you need to be able to trust the agreed winning team for this arrangement to work. Maybe we need an insurance agreement document, where the cheated party gets to pick a spare motor from your kit if you diverge.

[George1902]

Originally Posted by Swampdude

I think this is worth proposing, but the purists will spit on you.

If they can reach you from where you'll be sitting, way up in the standings.

[skimoose]

Originally Posted by waialua359

I dont agree with this.
Scoring 4 for yourself and scoring 2 for the other team across the field is easier said than done.
IMO, you only need 1 scoring bot in the near zone and an effective defensive/shoot balls over the bump mechanism to win a week 1 regional!

Sorry, but this thread is correct. One of the worst things any team can do during the qualification rounds is play defense. The ranking system and current regional rankings clearly show this. Preventing your opponent from scoring is driving your team down the ranking ladder plain and simple. Since you start with a "backfield" robot, scoring for your opponent should be relatively simple. just bulldoze balls in.

As for what's needed to win a week 1 regional... lets see what happens when the seeding point system isn't important in a match.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by waialua359

IMO, you only need 1 scoring bot in the near zone and an effective defensive/shoot balls over the bump mechanism to win a week 1 regional!

Striker / "Recycler" / Flex - Defense is something that won't just win week 1 events, I hope.

Collusion sucks. I'm going to figure out how to maximize my team's ranking score (if it matters to us) without talking to the other alliance. Then again, my team's built a very defense oriented robot, and the qualification system gives us no chance to show off the characteristics of the robot designed completely around the elimination round... *sigh*

[XaulZan11]

If both alliances are scoring for the other alliance, wouldn't it be better just to score for your alliance?

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

If both alliances are scoring for the other alliance, wouldn't it be better just to score for your alliance?

I'm beginning to wonder if I should just flip a coin and tell my team to score in whichever goal the coin says.

[Kevka]

Basically, you have to score into your own goal, keep your oponents from scoring into their own goal and then there are two more things to consider:
1. How do you get your oponents to get penanlties?
2. If your strategy is to loose anyway, you can get as many penalities as you want. What does this allow you to do.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by Kevka

Basically, you have to score into your own goal, keep your oponents from scoring into their own goal and then there are two more things to consider:
1. How do you get your oponents to get penanlties?
2. If your strategy is to loose anyway, you can get as many penalities as you want. What does this allow you to do.

Clearly you havent read the rules. Winning your qualification matches is not nearly as critical as it has been in years past.

[StevenB]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

If both alliances are scoring for the other alliance, wouldn't it be better just to score for your alliance?

No, because you can lose points that you score for yourself. You can't lose points you score for your opponent. Penalties don't hurt you if you don't have any points to lose. I'm not suggesting that you should commit penalties because you can - I'm merely saying that they're a huge part of this game, and they will happen to your alliance, whether you like it or not.

From the webcasts I saw today, it was not uncommon to get five or more points in penalties. Nearly every match seemed to have a penalty on one side or another. With this kind of unpredictability, reliably winning by a small margin seems nearly impossible.

[Molten]

Ok, I'm not really competing in this years game...but reading this thread has been shocking. Any previous year this strategy would have been seen as unethical and means for not getting picked. I believe it has been brought up more then once for previous games and has never gotten this response. I'm not debating the ethics or the effectiveness. I just wanted to comment on how confused your going to have the audience if this becomes common. Also, how do you explain to sponsors that you averaged 5 points for the opponent? Finally, why is there a game that these questions have to be asked?

[WJF2011]

.

Originally Posted by StevenB

With this kind of unpredictability, reliably winning by a small margin seems nearly impossible.

Actually, not true, most games we played in were close at peachtree, we even tied 0-0 3 times, our record at the end of qualifying was 2-1-3 but we were ranked dead last due to no points in a 0-0 tie. We were picked for an alliance because they knew teams ahead of us were worse than our robot and we ended up going well into the semis.

[pfreivald]

We saw this strategy and we thought that it was very much against Gracious Professionalism, and poor gamesmanship besides. We played every game to win, no matter what...

...and we were first seed, and at the end of the day, Regional Champions. (*AND* we won the 'Cooperatition(TM) Award' to boot.)

My suggestion: just play the game. It worked for us, *and* it gives the other teams' scouts a better idea of what your robot is capable of when winning is all about who has more points at the end of a match.

The top eight teams are *so* fluid this year because of the scoring system, that scouting is that much more important -- we went from 13th to 1st in three games. Too many people seem more focused on a mathematical trick than they are on the psychology of scouting -- and IMO that is a big mistake.

Patrick

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by pfreivald

We saw this strategy and we thought that it was very much against Gracious Professionalism, and poor gamesmanship besides. We played every game to win, no matter what...

...and we were first seed, and at the end of the day, Regional Champions. (*AND* we won the 'Cooperatition(TM) Award' to boot.)

My suggestion: just play the game. It worked for us, *and* it gives the other teams' scouts a better idea of what your robot is capable of when winning is all about who has more points at the end of a match.

The top eight teams are *so* fluid this year because of the scoring system, that scouting is that much more important -- we went from 13th to 1st in three games. Too many people seem more focused on a mathematical trick than they are on the psychology of scouting -- and IMO that is a big mistake.

Patrick

You guys were great at FLR. Loved the robot!
I think that the qual ranking system this year is FUBAR. Smart teams should just not look at it, or they will get false hope, or become depressed. We got picked as a first choice for an alliance even though we were seeded in the high 20's. The team that picked us knew that we were good, despite a bunch of lousy scoring matches.

BTW, GoW, were you the guys we played with in the match when we had 2 bots with no field connection and we scored 5 goals on our own?

[dtengineering]

Just for the record, going for this strategy does not require "collusion" or cooperation between two alliances... one alliance can do it by themselves fairly effectively.

They can just park one robot in front of each of their own goals, to make sure that the opposing alliance doesn't "helpfully" score on their behalf, and then use the third robot to pass balls towards the opponents end of the field, making it easier for them to score.

Boring match, yes. Not a great way to show off your robot for alliance selections? No. But a good strategy to employ should you ever face off against a notably superior alliance? You bet.

The rule of the game this year, whether we like it or not, is "if you think you're outmatched... give in."

Jason