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Unread 07-03-2010, 20:13
Valkyrie133 Valkyrie133 is offline
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Re: Ranking

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Originally Posted by sgreco View Post
I misread it, but honestly I hope nobody ever does any of this. Regardless of how poorly written the rules are, or what the intent is for cooperating, I hope teams don't manipulate the rules to this extreme.
Too late to hope nobody ever does it - it's already been done, and I expect it will continue to be done as long as it's a good way to get seeding points.

Teams are not "manipulating" the rules by using this strategy. They are using the rules exactly as written. If that results in matches with no competition, then the RULES need fixing, not the strategy.
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Unread 07-03-2010, 20:18
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Re: Ranking

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie133 View Post
Teams are not "manipulating" the rules by using this strategy. They are using the rules exactly as written. If that results in matches with no competition, then the RULES need fixing, not the strategy.
ditto that.


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Unread 07-03-2010, 20:55
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Re: Ranking

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie133 View Post
Too late to hope nobody ever does it - it's already been done, and I expect it will continue to be done as long as it's a good way to get seeding points.

Teams are not "manipulating" the rules by using this strategy. They are using the rules exactly as written. If that results in matches with no competition, then the RULES need fixing, not the strategy.
I understand that, but the point of a competition is to compete. So the rules must have been phrased poorly such that teams are playing a match, but yet not competing against each other. FIRST is a competition for a reason; I hope the competition part doesn't get lost in the future because FIRST is far better than a science fair.
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Unread 07-03-2010, 21:14
Valkyrie133 Valkyrie133 is offline
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Re: Ranking

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Originally Posted by sgreco View Post
So the rules must have been phrased poorly such that teams are playing a match, but yet not competing against each other. FIRST is a competition for a reason; I hope the competition part doesn't get lost in the future because FIRST is far better than a science fair.
I think "phrased poorly" is a tactful way to say it. I agree that FIRST is a competition for a reason, and I also hope the competition part doesn't get lost. Unfortunately, the way the rules are written, that's exactly what can happen.
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Unread 07-03-2010, 23:54
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Re: Ranking

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Originally Posted by sgreco View Post
What was wrong with the old days when the teams that won got the best seeds? What part of earning your seeding position isn't fair?
There aren't enough matches to make the "best" teams seed the highest with a strict win/lose tally. This year's scheme seems to be compensating somewhat for things like winning easy matches vs. losing hard ones.

So many people are saying it's better to lose 0-5 than to win 3-0...but it's better yet to win 3-2. A 6v0 game where everyone gets the same number of seeding points doesn't benefit anyone; nobody rises or falls in the ranking. A game-theory analysis tells me that the best overall strategy is to score points and play to win.
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Unread 08-03-2010, 00:16
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Re: Ranking

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie133 View Post
Teams are not "manipulating" the rules by using this strategy. They are using the rules exactly as written. If that results in matches with no competition, then the RULES need fixing, not the strategy.
So as long as things are done within the law, it's all peachy? It's acceptable to exploit the law to your full advantage, regardless of how that affects other people? I think it's more then the rules that need fixing if people are willing to ignore the rest of the game just to get those seeding points.

As for how to change the rules to prevent exploitation, I would simply give the winning team the combined score and the losing team half of that. The higher the scores the better it is for both teams, but you also want to win as it will give you many more points then losing.
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Unread 08-03-2010, 00:32
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Re: Ranking

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Originally Posted by Herodotus View Post
So as long as things are done within the law, it's all peachy? It's acceptable to exploit the law to your full advantage, regardless of how that affects other people? I think it's more then the rules that need fixing if people are willing to ignore the rest of the game just to get those seeding points.
The game rules define the game. Teams who read and understand the game rules and plan their game strategy accordingly are playing the game.

Just like NFL head coaches who call a timeout to "ice" the opposing team's kicker.

If you don't like the game, change the rules.


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Unread 08-03-2010, 00:36
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Re: Ranking

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Originally Posted by Ether View Post
The game rules define the game. Teams who read and understand the game rules and plan their game strategy accordingly are playing the game.

Just like NFL head coaches who call a timeout to "ice" the opposing team's kicker.

If you don't like the game, change the rules.


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FIRST is something more then a game, it's also a learning experience for young kids. I was always under the impression that FIRST was as much an analogue for life as it was for other sports, and teaching kids to exploit the law can be just as detrimental as leaving the law exploitable. Both things need to change.
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I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso
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2009 Detroit District Finalists - Thanks to 1856 and 2620
2009 Kettering District Quarter-Finalists - Thanks to 1504 and 1025.
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2008 Great Lakes Finalists - thanks 66 & 217
2008 Western Michigan Semi-Finalists - thanks 2337 and 1504
2008 GLR Judges Award Winner
2007 Curie Division Champions - thanks 330 and 1270
2007 ARC Champions (13 and 0, plus scoring a double-keeper!) - thanks 1625 and 313
2007 MARC Champions - thanks 1732 and 1023
2007 Xerox Creativity Award - Western Michign
2006 I.R.I. Champions - thanks 71 and 1625

Last edited by Herodotus : 08-03-2010 at 00:38.
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Unread 08-03-2010, 01:11
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Re: Ranking

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teaching kids to exploit the law
We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Reading and understanding a set of rules for a game and forming a winning strategy based on those rules is not "teaching kids to exploit the law". It's teaching them how to think and compete.


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