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View Poll Results: Do you like the new seeding system?
Yes, I like this system. 10 3.21%
Yes, I like the system, although it's not perfect. 23 7.37%
I have mixed feelings about it. 42 13.46%
No, I don't like the system, although with a few tweaks it could be fine. 27 8.65%
No, I like the idea of this system, but I don't think it works out in practice. 41 13.14%
No, I don't like this system, period. 169 54.17%
Voters: 312. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 09-03-2010, 09:26
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Re: Do you like the seeding system?

Sure wish the GDC and Dean would read this and comment.
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Unread 09-03-2010, 09:42
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Re: Do you like the seeding system?

I'm gonna take a shot at this and propose what I think may be a better system. Borrowed nearly directly from the swiss rounds of a Magic: the Gathering tournament:
Rank is based on match points. you get 3 points for winning, 1 point for tying, and 0 points for losing.
The first tiebreaker is your opponent's match points. this summed amongst all opponents in alliances against you (counting teams once for each time they faced against you).
The second tiebreaker is your allies' match points (low being better than high. once again, counting teams once for each time you allied with them).
Third tiebreakers would be whatever endgame score is appropriate for the game, and fourth is random.

By tie-breaking off of record instead of points teams no longer have any reason to score for others, but still rewards teams for fighting against harder opponents.

I believe the scoring system is not the place to discourage defense, however I would consider a tiebreaker based on a highest average points scored, but throwing out the top and bottom scores as outliers.
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Unread 09-03-2010, 14:50
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Re: Do you like the seeding system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruceb View Post
Sure wish the GDC and Dean would read this and comment.
QFT. The President of FIRST was at FLR and I'm still waiting for an official comment. Sadly, I don't think we will be getting one.

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Unread 09-03-2010, 14:59
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Re: Do you like the seeding system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinez View Post
QFT. The President of FIRST was at FLR and I'm still waiting for an official comment. Sadly, I don't think we will be getting one.

I wouldn't expect much of a comment or change at this point, but perhaps at least an acknowledgement in Atlanta. I imagine many teams will work the new system to our advantage for the rest of this season. I know our team is already making a "Top Ten" list for teams that haven't competed yet when we go to our next competition. Here's a start...

1. Don't play defense in qualification matches.
2. Don't let a ball get under your robot.
3. Don't mess around the bump if there is a ball there.
4. In qualification matches, moving two robots into your offensive zone is a good thing.
5-10. ???
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Unread 09-03-2010, 15:27
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Re: Do you like the seeding system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris27 View Post
The average spectator doesn't care about the "blue alliance" or the "red alliance" rather they care about individual robots such as the one their son/daughter built (from the perspective of a parent) or perhaps the robot they built themselves (from the perspective of a student). Already design constraints of this year's game resulted in most robots looking very similar (short boxes). With homogeneous bumpers, it makes it even harder to tell the robots apart. Just having a different number marked on the bumper is not a good way to distinguish your robot. For one, they are unreadable on web casts. Also, from back in the stands, I bet many people may have trouble reading them.

This year, you can't just look for tiedye bumpers and say, hey, that's Wildstang.
I still think it's rather easy, even from the stands (though I haven't watched a webcast) to identify which robot is which. And I've never met a spectator who didn't understand the concept of the 3v3 match, and why they should cheer for their robots' partners as well. Especially for those not concerned with an individual team (such as VIPs, visiting area school field trips, and event sponsors), it makes it even better.

I remember plenty of years when I'd be trying to explain what is happening to people in the stands (or scouting a match) and even having myself getting confused as to who is on which alliance.
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Unread 09-03-2010, 15:32
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Re: Do you like the seeding system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
I still think it's rather easy, even from the stands (though I haven't watched a webcast) to identify which robot is which. And I've never met a spectator who didn't understand the concept of the 3v3 match, and why they should cheer for their robots' partners as well. Especially for those not concerned with an individual team (such as VIPs, visiting area school field trips, and event sponsors), it makes it even better.

I remember plenty of years when I'd be trying to explain what is happening to people in the stands (or scouting a match) and even having myself getting confused as to who is on which alliance.
I'm going to agree with Sean here. I'll show someone a 2008 video, they'll be completely confused who's on what team. 2009 was a step in the right direction, but the whole game confused them. 2010, my friend walks in during a webcast, "wow red team's kicking butt!"

Maybe 50% of the bumpers should be red / blue and the other half should have nothing close enough to those colors to confuse anyone. Or maybe some variant should be allowed (red camo v blue camo, red tye dye versus blue tye dye, etc). But as it stands now, we have a bulletproof identification system.
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Unread 09-03-2010, 15:42
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Re: Do you like the seeding system?

I think that you can credit (or blame) Travis Hoffman of Delphi Elite, Team 48 for the rule about red and blue bumpers. As I recall, he is the one who suggested the idea to F.I.R.S.T. on this forum the first year that bumpers where required.
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Unread 09-03-2010, 16:02
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Re: Do you like the seeding system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick.oliver View Post
I think that you can credit (or blame) Travis Hoffman of Delphi Elite, Team 48 for the rule about red and blue bumpers. As I recall, he is the one who suggested the idea to F.I.R.S.T. on this forum the first year that bumpers where required.
Actually you can thank (or curse) team 1038 who hadtwo sets of bumpers color for whatever alliance they were with in a given match.
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Unread 09-03-2010, 16:13
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Re: Do you like the seeding system?

I am a little confused on how the scoring system works. In the rules it says that when there is a tie, you get your score with penalties added. However, everyone is saying that a tie is like how you win. For example, if it was 10-10 with no penalties, then everyone gets 10. But what other people are saying is that if its 10-10 with no penalties, then you get 30. Which rule is correct?
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Unread 09-03-2010, 16:20
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Re: Do you like the seeding system?

if it was 10-10 all 6 teams get 30 seeding points, assuming there were no penalties. Because, ties act as a win, so your points (10) plus 2 times ur opponents score (20).
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Unread 09-03-2010, 16:21
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Re: Do you like the seeding system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb) View Post
I am a little confused on how the scoring system works. In the rules it says that when there is a tie, you get your score with penalties added. However, everyone is saying that a tie is like how you win. For example, if it was 10-10 with no penalties, then everyone gets 10. But what other people are saying is that if its 10-10 with no penalties, then you get 30. Which rule is correct?
Quote:
9.3.4 Match Seeding Points
All teams on the winning ALLIANCE will receive a number of seeding points equal to the penalized score (the score with any assessed penalties) of the winning ALLIANCE.
All teams on the losing ALLIANCE will receive a number of seeding points equal to un-penalized score (the score without any assessed penalties) of the winning ALLIANCE.
In the case of a tie, all participating teams will receive a number of seeding points equal to their ALLIANCE score (with any assessed penalties).
9.3.5 Coopertition™ Bonus
All teams on the winning ALLIANCE will receive a coopertition bonus: a number of seeding points equal to twice the un-penalized score (the score without any assessed penalties) of the losing ALLIANCE.
In the case of a tie, all participating teams will receive a coopertition bonus of a number of seeding points equal to twice their ALLIANCE score (with any assessed penalties).
First bold, 1X of your score.
Second bold, 2X of your score

Total, 1X + 2X = 3X
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Unread 09-03-2010, 16:21
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Re: Do you like the seeding system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb) View Post
I am a little confused on how the scoring system works. In the rules it says that when there is a tie, you get your score with penalties added. However, everyone is saying that a tie is like how you win. For example, if it was 10-10 with no penalties, then everyone gets 10. But what other people are saying is that if its 10-10 with no penalties, then you get 30. Which rule is correct?
Here is a link to a seed-point calculator:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=934119


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Unread 09-03-2010, 17:20
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Re: Do you like the seeding system?

Apparently FIRST heard/saw our concerns! Team update #16!
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Unread 09-03-2010, 18:03
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Re: Do you like the seeding system?

Actually, I like the colored bumpers. Heck of alot clearer and easier to see then the Flags and not as clumsy as the rotating lights. I think part of the issue of identifying individual teams is more due to low robots in order to go through the tunnel then anything else...
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Unread 09-03-2010, 18:03
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Re: Do you like the seeding system?

seed point calculator has been updated:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=934119

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