Networking remote dashboard

[EHaskins]

You must use a subnet other than 10.0.0.0/8, your team IPs are in this subnet.

For example if you use 172.3.69.0/24, it would work without any issues. However, without additional software it is not possible to have a camera feed on the second computer.

Exampel setting to use:
DS:
USB IP: 172.3.69.1
USB Subnet mask: 255.255.255.0
USB Other settings: empty
Forward dashboard to: 172.3.69.2

Remote DashboardPC
IP: 172.3.69.2
Subnet mask: 255.255.255.0

[rwood359]

Originally Posted by EHaskins

However, without additional software it is not possible to have a camera feed on the second computer.

Thanks for the information. I'll try it Thursday in Phoenix. But without the camera, the Dashboard isn't very useful.

[slavik262]

Originally Posted by EHaskins

For example if you use 172.3.69.0/24, it would work without any issues. However, without additional software it is not possible to have a camera feed on the second computer.

What do you mean by additional software? Do you mean software that forwards packets throught the Classmate? What do you suggest using for this?

[buchanan]

Is there documentation available as to how "dashboard forwarding" is intended to work and what's legal vs what's "not supported?" There are clear rules about physical and wireless network connections, and reasonably clear statements about port blocking, but where were we supposed to learn that the OP's configuration (which sounds a lot like what we've been doing) was somehow forbidden? If the remote dashboard/video tools use the same cRIO ports, protocols, and subnet as the provided classmate dashboard/video software, and run over legal physical connections, what's been violated? This does not sound to me like a matter of something not being "supported," it sounds more like something's been done to explicitly prevent it. Is that "something" documented anywhere?

Surprise or no, if the classmate-remote subnet must be different than the 10 subnet, why is it that the remote dashboard (proper) would expect to work over it while a remote video monitor wouldn't? Does the "forwarding" mechanism support one but not the other?

[rwood359]

Originally Posted by buchanan

There are clear rules about physical and wireless network connections, and reasonably clear statements about port blocking, but where were we supposed to learn that the OP's configuration (which sounds a lot like what we've been doing) was somehow forbidden? If the remote dashboard/video tools use the same cRIO ports, protocols, and subnet as the provided classmate dashboard/video software, and run over legal physical connections, what's been violated? This does not sound to me like a matter of something not being "supported," it sounds more like something's been done to explicitly prevent it.

When we had the two connections "bridged", the indicator by Enet Link on the Diagnostic tab of the Driver's Station was red. That was what caused the tech to say that the mode was not supported. We had other problems at the time so I don't know if the FMS link would have worked with the bridged connections. If we have a practice match to waste (small chance) tomorrow, I'll try bridging again.

[buchanan]

We'll be trying out our setup at the WI regional starting tomorrow morning - we'll find out.

Having spent some more time digging, I suspect they may be blocking all hosts on the 10.0.0.0 network except 10.x.y.z where x.y is a registered team number and z is either the cRIO (2) or Classmate (5?). I guess it makes sense, but it would have been nice to have been told this earlier (or were we?)

Another interesting data point is that we ran a couple of weeks ago at the Sussex WI practice meet under a presumably semi-official FMS without any problem.

We're working on a proxy dashboard to forward both the dashboard and video feeds in case we find out tomorrow that our current setup is blocked. I see that EHaskins has also posted what looks to be a similar solution at http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=84147

The other piece is to reconfigure the USB adapter to make a separate network rather than bridging on to 10.0.0.0. I'm trusting that's easy but haven't looked...

[Kitmor]

Our team had the same issue at the Oregon regional.
We had a usb NIC and had the network adapters bridged, and when it was like that, we could never get communications to our robot on the field. I don't know what it was that was causing the conflict, but as soon as we removed the bridge, the communications issues went away. I am wondering if FIRST was intending for us to have a separate dashboard this year on the field, because I'm not certain how else it is possible to attach the dashboard.

-Kit

[phobozad]

I can confirm that you cannot connect to the FMS with a bridged connection and another computer hanging off of it. As soon as the FMS system detects more than one computer attached to the field, they cut you off from field management. That being said, someone might try disabling ICMP on the attached laptop and/or firewalling off everything except the needed ports for dashboard data and video.

If that doesn't work, you will need to either write or find some software to read packets off the field interface and resend them on the USB ethernet interface. The only other option is turning the Classmate into a router, which is trivial and requires no extra software. Unfortunately, to make this work you need to add a default gateway or static route to the cRIO, which I haven't found a way to do yet (let me know if you know how).

However, if you only need dashboard data and aren't trying to get video on the second laptop, EHaskins' instructions are all you need - you can enter what IP you want to forward to with the "remote dashboard" function in the DS software.

Another interesting data point is that we ran a couple of weeks ago at the Sussex WI practice meet under a presumably semi-official FMS without any problem.

That presumption would be false. I was one of the ones helping to run that event; specifically I was working the field/control system. We were running the FMS light program, which while it may be semi-official, only provides very basic field control. We're still working on reintegrating and doing a complete overhaul of our FMS, but even then there aren't any plans to restrict access like at official events.

[buchanan]

We successfully ran our last practice match with a separate network, non-bridged, connecting the USB/ethernet adapter to the remote display machine, with a forwarding proxy installed in place of the classmate's local dashboard. So we have at least one configuration proven to work. I expect that's what we'll stick with now.

It's a bit unfortunate that what seems to be a reasonable and useful configuration, apparently not prohibited by the letter or spirit of the rules, is effectively prohibited by a practical limitation of the FMS that wasn't revealed until the last minute.

I'm also a little baffled about how the remote dashboard feature on the DS was INTENDED to work. Was it truly understood by anyone that this was a development-only feature that couldn't be supported in competition?

[slavik262]

Originally Posted by buchanan

It's a bit unfortunate that what seems to be a reasonable and useful configuration, apparently not prohibited by the letter or spirit of the rules, is effectively prohibited by a practical limitation of the FMS that wasn't revealed until the last minute.

I'm also a little baffled about how the remote dashboard feature on the DS was INTENDED to work. Was it truly understood by anyone that this was a development-only feature that couldn't be supported in competition?

The entire thing seems like a bit of a Catch-22 to me. We'll also be switching over to some sort of proxy system today. It's quite unfortunate that this "feature" of the FMS was never revealed to teams. Echoing buchanan, I don't understand what was intended at all, or if there was some lack of communication higher up in FIRST. Despite over and over giving teams the resources and suggesting procedures for running dashboard software on another laptop, it is now impossible to have a second laptop on the same subnet.

[Jon236]

Our Classmate's ethernet port is hosed and we want to use a usb nic. The device we bought works great on the team laptop, but not the Classmate. Are there any Classmate-particular issues I need to be aware of?

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by Jon236

Our Classmate's ethernet port is hosed and we want to use a usb nic. The device we bought works great on the team laptop, but not the Classmate. Are there any Classmate-particular issues I need to be aware of?

The important information to know is whether Windows is recognizing the USB nic or not. Our USB nic works fine, but we had to install the included drivers.

[Jon236]

Originally Posted by Joe Ross

The important information to know is whether Windows is recognizing the USB nic or not. Our USB nic works fine, but we had to install the included drivers.

Correct....in addition, it is necessary to disable all other network connections on the Classmate.