Team update 16

[George1902]

Originally Posted by cmh0114

No more scoring on your opponent in order to get double seeding points, either.

Why not? This update didn't remove the coopertition bonus.

If I'm winning 8-2 with 30 seconds left and 2 balls to score, do I make the score 10-2 or 8-4? The former nets me a seeding score of 19 under the new rules, while the latter nets me a seeding score of 21. The incentive is still to score for the other alliance.

Vice versa, if I'm losing 2-8 with 30 seconds left and 2 balls to score, do I make the score 4-8 or 2-10? The former nets me a seeding score of 8 while the latter nets me a seeding score of 10. Once again, the incentive is still to score for the other alliance.

Can someone explain to me what is different with this update? Yes, there is a bigger reward for winning, but once the match is out of reach for one alliance, 6v0 comes back into play.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by George1902

Can someone explain to me what is different with this update? Yes, there is a bigger reward for winning, but once the match is out of reach for one alliance, 6v0 comes back into play.

6v0 is not a catch all term for all cross goal scoring and I wish people would stop using it as such.

This update prevents pre arranging a match to have one winner and one loser, since the winner gets 5 more points.

[Swampdude]

Originally Posted by George1902

Why not? This update didn't remove the coopertition bonus.

If I'm winning 8-2 with 30 seconds left and 2 balls to score, do I make the score 10-2 or 8-4? The former nets me a seeding score of 19 under the new rules, while the latter nets me a seeding score of 21. The incentive is still to score for the other alliance.

Vice versa, if I'm losing 2-8 with 30 seconds left and 2 balls to score, do I make the score 4-8 or 2-10? The former nets me a seeding score of 8 while the latter nets me a seeding score of 10. Once again, the incentive is still to score for the other alliance.

Can someone explain to me what is different with this update? Yes, there is a bigger reward for winning, but once the match is out of reach for one alliance, 6v0 comes back into play.

I think 5 points and the threat of ball incursion penalties gone gives enough clear incentive to want to be the winner, where it didn't matter before. That's an important dynamic that should eliminate most of the predetermined 6v0 collusion. You're right, it's still there but I think this will put the winners where they belong.. on top.. and it's better than what we had! Looking forward to seeing you George!

[Martinez]

Originally Posted by Bill_B

Any thoughts on the amount of the added seed points? Why +5 and not +6 or +10? Seems like some speed limit traffic signs I've seen, namely, can't shake the possibility of arbitrariness.

5 Points = 5 Goals or 2.5 Hangs or 2.5 Goals from "Coopertition Bonus." Considering the overall average seems to be a 3-2 maybe even a 4-1 match for quals, I say it was a large enough spread to cause enough of a insentive to actually win your own matches without resorting the system to a simple W vs L ratio.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Enigma's puzzle

Although i have to agree with the change in the ranking system, i cannot say that i agree with the GDC changing the rules on the 3" penalty. It seems like they took a critical engineering problem out of the equation, i cannot speak for everyone, but as soon as we saw the problem occur on the robot, we designed a solution. I was surprised how many people hadn't designed a robot to prevent themselves from doing that. Dean and Woodie even brought that point up at kickoff.

They may have eliminated the penalty if the incursion is accidental, but they did not eliminate the incentive to not have incursions. Many teams I witnessed that got balls stuck underneath them spent substantial time, in some cases up to a minute to get the ball out from underneath them.

[Martinez]

Originally Posted by Enigma's puzzle

Although i have to agree with the change in the ranking system, i cannot say that i agree with the GDC changing the rules on the 3" penalty. It seems like they took a critical engineering problem out of the equation, i cannot speak for everyone, but as soon as we saw the problem occur on the robot, we designed a solution. I was surprised how many people hadn't designed a robot to prevent themselves from doing that. Dean and Woodie even brought that point up at kickoff.

You have to realize that alot of teams do not go through a very robust Test n Debug period prior to ship. Heck, having a finished working enough robot to play for Friday is considered a success by several teams. As a result, many teams recieved infractions again and again, espcially around the goal area.

Heck, we designed and redesigned our system to allow plenty of space to go over the bump, but keep out balls and got ourselves going over a ball we couldn't seefrom the playerstation once or twice as we tried going over the Bumps. Less Penalties (especailly in this game) I see as a very good thing.

[Justin Montois]

This is a huge update. Changes a lot and all for the better. It's just a shame our regional is over. I'm looking more forward to Championship now. Happy with these changes! Go GDC!

[Nawaid Ladak]

Originally Posted by George1902

Why not? This update didn't remove the coopertition bonus.

If I'm winning 8-2 with 30 seconds left and 2 balls to score, do I make the score 10-2 or 8-4? The former nets me a seeding score of 19 under the new rules, while the latter nets me a seeding score of 21. The incentive is still to score for the other alliance.

Vice versa, if I'm losing 2-8 with 30 seconds left and 2 balls to score, do I make the score 4-8 or 2-10? The former nets me a seeding score of 8 while the latter nets me a seeding score of 10. Once again, the incentive is still to score for the other alliance.

Can someone explain to me what is different with this update? Yes, there is a bigger reward for winning, but once the match is out of reach for one alliance, 6v0 comes back into play.

Your absolutely right in this. the reward for winning was the coopertition bonus. The GDC didn't need to add a incentive to win.

What i think is happening here is people are getting too hyped up for what the GDC did, All this does is stop matches from being fixed between two even alliances. If i knew i was going to lose. I would still play 6v0. it would STILL net me the most seeding points that my alliance could possibly gain from that match.

Sure this gives you more incentive to win (in qualification matches) . but wasn't that already a goal? (coopertition bonus, moves you to the top of the pack easier than a 6v0)

[Molten]

Originally Posted by Foster

Simple we went to FLR to:

• Wings and BBQ at Quaker Steak and Lube
• Sticklips BBQ
• Team dinner of BBQ at Dinosaur BBQ

Thats why we came! And we had a good time doing it.

I'm seeing a trend here...Florida has good BBQ?

[dtengineering]

Originally Posted by Nawaid Ladak

Sure this gives you more incentive to win. but wasn't that already a goal?

Winning the tournament is one goal. Winning a qualification match is another.

Now the two goals have a lot more in common with each other than they did a week ago.

Jason

[waialua359]

This changes nothing for our team.
We played to win every match last week and for the most part, that's how the SD regional was played.
In the end it worked out for the best.

Good luck in week 2 everyone!!!!

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Nawaid Ladak

What i think is happening here is people are getting too hyped up for what the GDC did, All this does is stop matches from being fixed between two even alliances. If i knew i was going to lose. I would still play 6v0. it would STILL net me the most seeding points that my alliance could possibly gain from that match.

Nawaid, the new rules are not perfect but it is an olive branch, it is showing us that the GDC is aware that people are finding problems and is trying to address them. I for one appreciate this.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Nawaid Ladak

Your absolutely right in this. the reward for winning was the coopertition bonus. The GDC didn't need to add a incentive to win.

What i think is happening here is people are getting too hyped up for what the GDC did, All this does is stop matches from being fixed between two even alliances. If i knew i was going to lose. I would still play 6v0. it would STILL net me the most seeding points that my alliance could possibly gain from that match.

Sure this gives you more incentive to win (in qualification matches) . but wasn't that already a goal? (coopertition bonus, moves you to the top of the pack easier than a 6v0)

The difference post #16 is that now the weaker alliance can't "steal" the win from the stronger team. Pre #16, if the weaker alliance managed to blank its score and run up the score of the stronger alliance, they essentially ended up tying the stronger alliance. This denies any ranking advantage to the stronger alliance even though it would appear that it should have garnered some advantage from the match. It did completely dominate the other team, after all.

Succinctly, if there's no difference between a 16-0 blowout and a 16-16 tie, something's probably wrong with your system. The post #16 system removes this oddity and creates a system where winning is actually rewarded in all circumstances. This is the fundamental difference between the two seeding systems.

[PaW]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

Winning the tournament is one goal. Winning a qualification match is another.

Now the two goals have a lot more in common with each other than they did a week ago.

Well said, Jason.

Thanks GDC.

[Nawaid Ladak]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

The difference post #16 is that now the weaker alliance can't "steal" the win from the stronger team. Pre #16, if the weaker alliance managed to blank its score and run up the score of the stronger alliance, they essentially ended up tying the stronger alliance. This denies any ranking advantage to the stronger alliance even though it would appear that it should have garnered some advantage from the match. It did completely dominate the other team, after all.

Succinctly, if there's no difference between a 16-0 blowout and a 16-16 tie, something's probably wrong with your system. The post #16 system removes this oddity and creates a system where winning is actually rewarded in all circumstances. This is the fundamental difference between the two seeding systems.

My point is that update 16 will not stop the weaker alliance from creating a 6v0 situation, it won't stop the stronger alliance to score for their opponents to raise their own seeding score/cooperation bonus even more. after all. I thought that was the issue that everyone was struggling with. "scoring points for your opponent". We already knew that part of the system was flawed.

It's great what the GDC has done with G46 and the principle of the 5 point bonus, but the process in which they have enforced the rule change. This change is totally unfair to teams who participated in Week 1 events. In a ideal world the GDC would have announced this change, but would not implement it until the Championship Event. That would give people a even playing field during their respective Regional competitions.

Of course life isn't fair, and neither is anything in it. So i guess we just have to live with it.