Team update 16

[PayneTrain]

It's just a general issue FIRST has tried to deal with for a few years; they almost have to turn regionals week one into a test drive.

Why not just set the regionals a week later and allow the FiM guys to run a district or two to test out the field system, points settings, and the rules? At least beta test on something that covers less money and less teams.

[pfreivald]

Is it really that big a deal?

1551 has been going to week 1 regionals since it's inception -- and has never attended two regionals -- and we've never found that there's some big problem with the first week...

Could they have anticipated the seeding issues? Sure.
Could they have anticipated the reffing issues? Sure.

Were either of these things a surprise to anyone playing? Not if they read the rules and assumed they would be followed to a 'T'***...

...and that means that at the very least, week 1 teams were playing a fair game.

**...even though this may be a bad assumption. Two years ago, our robot Shiela was designed around the fact that contact outside the bumper zone would be penalized. It pretty much never was, and our super-compact trackball grabber went basically unnoticed -- as did the elegant design that only extended 3" outside the frame, and then only while gathering a trackball from the floor. And there were plenty of games that we would have won had cotbz penalties been called...

But that's ok. Once we knew how it would be played, a fair game is a fair game, and fun (and learnin') was had by all.

[ExTexan]

This could be tested with a $10.00 soccer ball in 5 minutes of testing prior to ship.

Now there is something I am going to suggest to my team...."testing before ship (bag)"....on second thought, maybe I'll just ref!

[anyheck]

Originally Posted by BIGWILLI2081

When were they to know some of the rules were not the best? Before the regionals started? They had to observe it before they could change it. Although, I do agree the seeding point system was not the best to begin with, it just took some examples (and complaining) before the GDC realized they had to do something to make it better. Unfortunately for week 1 teams, they were the guinea pigs. It's better they change them now than never. I give props to the GDC for fixing the rules.

I'm glad that we could be part of the beta test for the game. Let the real week one begin!

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by anyheck

I'm glad that we could be part of the beta test for the game. Let the real week one begin!

Do you have a suggestion on how FIRST could do things better? Or do you just like to whine and complain?

[The Lucas]

Originally Posted by anyheck

Changing the rules in the middle of the season = Fundamental FAIL.

At least the GDC changed the rules in what is widely regarded as a positive way after Week 1. I am happy and truly stunned (unprecedented) that they improved the seeding system to save the rest of the year. It could be worse they could change the rules in a negative way after Week 1. That is what happened in 2003 with the now infamous Tape Measure Rule. I was at that Week 1 VCU Regional. I was not happy that we had to scrap our tape measure early in the design process when it was deemed illegal by an update, only to compete against teams (who didn't read the updates) with (suddenly legal) tape measures.

Update 16 is a good update after Week 1, so it is the Anti-Tape Measure Rule.

Week 1 is always a guinea pig for something (FMS, Real Time Scoring, rule loopholes). However, you cant let these issues ruin the event for you. If things like that really bother you, maybe you should consider attending a later regional. My teams try to avoid Week 1 Regionals for multiple reasons. I realise other teams have little choice when thier home regional or the only regional for a few hundred miles is on Week 1.

Originally Posted by pfreivald

1551 has been going to week 1 regionals since it's inception -- and has never attended two regionals -- and we've never found that there's some big problem with the first week...

Actually, half of the FLR regionals (06-08) have occured on Week 2. It really matters which week in January is Kickoff (and what day of the week is January 1st). I can't wait for FLR to be on Week 2 again.

[anyheck]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

Do you have a suggestion on how FIRST could do things better? Or do you just like to whine and complain?

They could improve by not changing the rules after 'coopertition' has actually begun.

I guess I wasn't clear before.

Some other ideas:

Call the week 1 regionals 'beta' so people know that that's what they're buying into and don't make them 'count.'

Discount teams a N>1 regional if they are doing an N=1.

Run a test regional early with 'real scoring' to find bugs. Some areas have enough density of teams for this to be reasonable.

Have FIRST build some robots and play with them with 'real scoring' in the 9-months that they have to design the game.

Live with the rules they came up with even if they suck.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by anyheck

Live with the rules they came up with even if they suck.

Yup, let's make everyone suffer just so you can feel better about your regional selection choice.

Do we really need to take such drastic measures when the Week 1 bugs are usually relatively minor?

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by anyheck

Run a test regional early with 'real scoring' to find bugs. Some areas have enough density of teams for this to be reasonable.

This one I like, and has been suggested by others. Let some of the well attended-well run pre-ships be run with the full official field and full official scoring. They already do this with one event, but it may be wise to do it with multiple events.

Have FIRST build some robots and play with them with 'real scoring' in the 9-months that they have to design the game.

They already do this. The problem is that, as brilliant as the GDC members are, they just can't match the manpower of every FIRST team combined. We will inevitably find things that they do not.

Live with the rules they came up with even if they suck.

So instead of fixing something that they felt was broken, they should just allow the other 4 weeks of regionals to play with the same broken rules? They should allow the seeding system to degenerate into cesspool of prearranged 6v0 matches? I hardly see how that would have been of benefit to anyone.

[Nawaid Ladak]

Originally Posted by Martinez

See, that's where FIRST believes their random alliance generator is infalliable, allowing such a one sided match never to happen. Ideally, with the alliance generator in place, blow outs should be rare or never happen. Of course, we all know the truth of that matter.

Galileo 2009 Qualification Match 42? (it's close enough, 45, 67, 111)

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

Do you have a suggestion on how FIRST could do things better? Or do you just like to whine and complain?

the poster has one simple point. One set of teams play by a set of rules while everyone else plays by different rules. I would have loved to see teh GDC change this for Championships (and) MSC.

but what FIRST CAN do is possibly ship out he fields so that they may be used for scrimmage events. probably in the general area of where the Week 1 regionals would be held. and have the events run similar to one day regionals (each team gets a minimum 3-4 qm's, 4 alliances etc.). and collect feedback from the various events so that if need be, new rules can be implemented before the regional season starts. That way everyone plays by the same set of rules when points really count.

[rwood359]

Originally Posted by anyheck

Run a test regional early with 'real scoring' to find bugs. Some areas have enough density of teams for this to be reasonable.

If this were done, I'd like to see it done with mentor designed and driven kit robots or something other than robots and drivers that are going to compete. An extra free regional would give the attending teams a huge advantage in testing their design and training their drivers.

[Steve W]

Time to let this one cool for a bit. There has been enough "Good for the GDC" and FIRST sucks posts. Let's put this thread on hold till Friday morning and then I will open for discussion again.

[Steve W]

The thread is now open. Please be civil with the posts.

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by DeepWater

Really? Teams that designed to be able to drive over the bumps never thought that they might also drive over a ball? Really? I thought most teams would have considered that early on during the design process. We sure did. That was one of the factors that steered us away from going over the bumps from the beginning. That and the higher likelihood of getting flipped over. We DESIGNED to minimize the likelihood of penalties from the beginning rather than leaving it as an after thought for the drivers to deal with on the field.

Teams should have considered it early on, but for some it was an afterthought. It'd be great if every team had time to test things, but some are lucky if it's driving by the time it goes into the crate. Being a week 1 event, it wasn't surprising to see so many ball incursion penalties.

We were using Lexan plates near our wheels with surgical tubing tied across to keep the balls out, but this still allowed balls to come in from the side on occasion when we translated sideways. We remedied this by taking a long thin strip of Lexan and creating a parabola-shape on the bottom of our frame.

Even some of the most well-designed robots in San Diego would get a ball up under them every now and then, which would decide the match. I'm in favor of the change and can't wait to see some of the new high scores this week.

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by The Lucas

Actually, half of the FLR regionals (06-08) have occured on Week 2. It really matters which week in January is Kickoff (and what day of the week is January 1st). I can't wait for FLR to be on Week 2 again.

I stand corrected!

Either way, I'm fine with a Week 1 Regional. There are always bugs/kinks to work out, but there always are with our robots, too!