Drive-over penalties still being called

[jspatz1]

The refs at Wisconsin evidently didn't get the memo on Update 16 removing the penalty for inadvertantly driving over the ball. They are still calling this penalty, and it is effecting match outcomes. Can anyone report if this is this happening at any other week 2 regional?

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by jspatz1

The refs at Wisconsin evidently didn't get the memo on Update 16 removing the penalty for inadvertantly driving over the ball. They are still calling this penalty, and it is effecting match outcomes. Can anyone report if this is this happening at any other week 2 regional?

I'd like to know what's going on with this too. On the webcast, 4 or more teams in every single match are being shown with yellow cards. That's just silly, and it's a turnoff for spectators.

[Nathan Streeter]

I didn't see what these penalties were called against, but teams can still get penalized for driving onto a ball! If the event is either intentional or if the robot procedes to score, cross zones, kick or possess another ball, or engage with another robot, the team earns a penalty. The exact wording is in the rules, but it is essentially to that effect. So, although I'm expecting this to reduce the penalties resulting from this rule (at least for teams that drop whatever they're doing and get off the ball!), I don't think it'll eliminate these penalties!

[jspatz1]

Certainly there are still cases where the penalty applies. As I mentioned, the calls I was refering to are being made for the slightest, momentary roll-over on balls, just as they were in week 1.

[jamie_1930]

Don't talk to us go tell your ref, wave the update in his or her face, and tell them to do their job. Sorry if that last part comes of as rude to anyone, but that is unexcusable.

[ttldomination]

Originally Posted by jspatz1

These calls are being made for the slightest, momentary roll-over on balls, just as they were in week 1.

Ask the head ref. If he/she doesn't know about the update, then you'll be doing everyone a favor. If he/she does, then maybe there's a second side to these calls.

Originally Posted by jamie_1930

Don't talk to us go tell your ref, wave the update in his or her face, and tell them to do their job. Sorry if that last part comes of as rude to anyone, but that is unexcusable.

Hahaha, there's always two sides to the story, so I wanna hear the other side before I recommend waving the update in the referee's face.

[kmitchell]

This is what the referee question box is for. Have a member of your drive team go stand in it after the next match your team is in that has this call. Have them take a copy of the update with them. In the end you need an answer from the head referee.

[Mike Soukup]

Originally Posted by kmitchell

This is what the referee question box is for. Have a member of your drive team go stand in it after the next match your team is in that has this call. Have them take a copy of the update with them. In the end you need an answer from the head referee.

Our student representative did just that, but the ref isn't budging. Hopefully he'll get straightened out by FIRST tonight.

[Tanner]

Originally Posted by Mike Soukup

Our student representative did just that, but the ref isn't budging. Hopefully he'll get straightened out by FIRST tonight.

Did the referee give a reason or anything?

-Tanner

[Mike Soukup]

Originally Posted by Tanner

Did the referee give a reason or anything?

-Tanner

No reason. He didn't see the play, but said he trusts the ref that made the call.

The full description of the incident. We were on the far side of the field and were about to climb the bump. The drivers didn't see a ball on the plywood and started to ride up it. They immediately backed up & off the ball, then crossed over the bump. We got a penalty plus a DQ for a second infraction.

[Drivencrazy]

Yeah I watched parts of about 6 different regional webcasts today and I saw more yellow cards than I did in week one.

The matches that I listened to that had penalties were still almost all infractions of G46.

The following is the new wording of the rule and in my opinion alot of these incidents would be considered non-penalties under this rule.

"<G46> BALL Penetration Restriction – The BALL must not extend more than 3 inches inside the FRAME PERIMETER as defined in Rule <R19>. Incidental protrusions of the BALL within this boundary will not be penalized if the TEAM corrects the condition before resuming game play. Violation: PENALTY for a basic infraction, plus a YELLOW CARD if no immediate attempt to remedy and/or the action is deemed intentional."

Hopefully we see refs begin to follow the update in the qualifying matches and into the elims tomorrow.

Good luck.

[Wayne Doenges]

My advice, FWIW, is DON'T DRIVE OVER THE BALLS!!!!

[alicen]

Originally Posted by jamie_1930

Don't talk to us go tell your ref, wave the update in his or her face, and tell them to do their job. Sorry if that last part comes of as rude to anyone, but that is unexcusable.

"tell them to do their job" is a rude thing to say. all of these refs are volunteers. i know a lot of people get caught up in the heat of things, but these refs have lives outside of FIRST.

per say, my mom's a head ref. while at our regional i was talking with another team and they started bashing the refs. after telling them one was my mother they all felt horrible.

it really shouldn't matter though, the refs can't be expected to be absolutely perfect, and the best way to get things fixed is to approach in a kind and forgiving manner.

i'm not trying to say that the refs are right, i'm just saying show some GP. that's what we're really here to do

[jspatz1]

Originally Posted by Mike Soukup

No reason. He didn't see the play, but said he trusts the ref that made the call.

The full description of the incident. We were on the far side of the field and were about to climb the bump. The drivers didn't see a ball on the plywood and started to ride up it. They immediately backed up & off the ball, then crossed over the bump. We got a penalty plus a DQ for a second infraction.

This was just one of many such calls I saw today at Wisconsin. Incidental, unintentional momentary roll-overs away from the goals and away from other robots being called. Definitely with week-1, pre-update standards. No one is bashing the refs. Just wondering if word got out to them about the update because of the number of questionable calls. My main question in the original post was if anyone was seeing this happen at other regionals, or if the update seemed to be followed elsewhere.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Mike Soukup

No reason. He didn't see the play, but said he trusts the ref that made the call.

The full description of the incident. We were on the far side of the field and were about to climb the bump. The drivers didn't see a ball on the plywood and started to ride up it. They immediately backed up & off the ball, then crossed over the bump. We got a penalty plus a DQ for a second infraction.

That play was shown clearly on the webcast and the 111 drivers definitely did immediately back down off the ball, then clear the ball before crossing the bump. After Update 16 there should have been no penalty and even before Update 16 there should not have been a yellow card.

If anything this rule is being called more strictly at Wisconsin than at any event than was webcast last week. From what I can tell they were giving a yellow card for every infraction, even before the update a yellow card should only be given if no immediate attempt is made to fix the incursion.

EDIT:
Jeff,

From what I saw (which was quite a few matches from Florida, WPI, Pittsburgh and Arizona) it appeared that there were a lot less ball incursion violations being called at these events compared to week 1 events.