Drive-over penalties still being called

[ttldomination]

Originally Posted by jspatz1

These calls are being made for the slightest, momentary roll-over on balls, just as they were in week 1.

Ask the head ref. If he/she doesn't know about the update, then you'll be doing everyone a favor. If he/she does, then maybe there's a second side to these calls.

Originally Posted by jamie_1930

Don't talk to us go tell your ref, wave the update in his or her face, and tell them to do their job. Sorry if that last part comes of as rude to anyone, but that is unexcusable.

Hahaha, there's always two sides to the story, so I wanna hear the other side before I recommend waving the update in the referee's face.

[kmitchell]

This is what the referee question box is for. Have a member of your drive team go stand in it after the next match your team is in that has this call. Have them take a copy of the update with them. In the end you need an answer from the head referee.

[Mike Soukup]

Originally Posted by kmitchell

This is what the referee question box is for. Have a member of your drive team go stand in it after the next match your team is in that has this call. Have them take a copy of the update with them. In the end you need an answer from the head referee.

Our student representative did just that, but the ref isn't budging. Hopefully he'll get straightened out by FIRST tonight.

[Tanner]

Originally Posted by Mike Soukup

Our student representative did just that, but the ref isn't budging. Hopefully he'll get straightened out by FIRST tonight.

Did the referee give a reason or anything?

-Tanner

[Mike Soukup]

Originally Posted by Tanner

Did the referee give a reason or anything?

-Tanner

No reason. He didn't see the play, but said he trusts the ref that made the call.

The full description of the incident. We were on the far side of the field and were about to climb the bump. The drivers didn't see a ball on the plywood and started to ride up it. They immediately backed up & off the ball, then crossed over the bump. We got a penalty plus a DQ for a second infraction.

[Drivencrazy]

Yeah I watched parts of about 6 different regional webcasts today and I saw more yellow cards than I did in week one.

The matches that I listened to that had penalties were still almost all infractions of G46.

The following is the new wording of the rule and in my opinion alot of these incidents would be considered non-penalties under this rule.

"<G46> BALL Penetration Restriction – The BALL must not extend more than 3 inches inside the FRAME PERIMETER as defined in Rule <R19>. Incidental protrusions of the BALL within this boundary will not be penalized if the TEAM corrects the condition before resuming game play. Violation: PENALTY for a basic infraction, plus a YELLOW CARD if no immediate attempt to remedy and/or the action is deemed intentional."

Hopefully we see refs begin to follow the update in the qualifying matches and into the elims tomorrow.

Good luck.

[Wayne Doenges]

My advice, FWIW, is DON'T DRIVE OVER THE BALLS!!!!

[JHSmentor]

Originally Posted by Wayne Doenges

My advice, FWIW, is DON'T DRIVE OVER THE BALLS!!!!

You're kidding right? I mean - why didn't we think of that! Jeash - it's so obvious now.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by JHSmentor

You're kidding right? I mean - why didn't we think of that! Jeash - it's so obvious now.

If everyone had thought about it when designing their robot...this wouldn't be such a common a problem. Sorry to say, but I think the blame of this issue is 50/50. Just cause the GDC went lax, try to still make your robot ball resistant. I have to agree with Wayne on this one.

[JHSmentor]

Originally Posted by Molten

If everyone had thought about it when designing their robot...this wouldn't be such a common a problem. Sorry to say, but I think the blame of this issue is 50/50. Just cause the GDC went lax, try to still make your robot ball resistant. I have to agree with Wayne on this one.

you honestly believe that teams that are incuring this penalty didn't TRY to design their robot in such a way as to keep the ball out? I dare say that EVERY robot was designed with that in mind. I saw robots that really should have no business getting a ball under them (very low, 6-8 wheels on the sides or sides that nearly go to the ground, not even capable or trying to go over the bump, small kicker in front or a mechanism in front that blocks the entire area) being pushed on (we were pushed over 3 at one time and were penalized), landing on, and driving over the ball and being penalized. Sure there are robots that are more open under them than others - that's a consequence of trying to go over the bump and also trying to have a kicker mechanism but EVERY robot I have seen is making an attempt at protecting themseves from this rule.

It's also one thing to drive over the ball and quite another to get one stuck under the robot or inside the robot and not be able to dislodge it. while I understand being penalized for the later case (and, yes, this is a design issue in most cases), being penalized for landing on or driving over and being pushed over a ball is rediculous and unavoidable. Unless, of course, you just avoid the balls all together - which is like avoiding the game all together.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by JHSmentor

you honestly believe that teams that are incuring this penalty didn't TRY to design their robot in such a way as to keep the ball out? I dare say that EVERY robot was designed with that in mind.

My point was, in a dysfunctional relationship...the blame is always on both. You can't throw all of this on FIRST when it is a part of the challenge.

[jspatz1]

Originally Posted by Mike Soukup

No reason. He didn't see the play, but said he trusts the ref that made the call.

The full description of the incident. We were on the far side of the field and were about to climb the bump. The drivers didn't see a ball on the plywood and started to ride up it. They immediately backed up & off the ball, then crossed over the bump. We got a penalty plus a DQ for a second infraction.

This was just one of many such calls I saw today at Wisconsin. Incidental, unintentional momentary roll-overs away from the goals and away from other robots being called. Definitely with week-1, pre-update standards. No one is bashing the refs. Just wondering if word got out to them about the update because of the number of questionable calls. My main question in the original post was if anyone was seeing this happen at other regionals, or if the update seemed to be followed elsewhere.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Mike Soukup

No reason. He didn't see the play, but said he trusts the ref that made the call.

The full description of the incident. We were on the far side of the field and were about to climb the bump. The drivers didn't see a ball on the plywood and started to ride up it. They immediately backed up & off the ball, then crossed over the bump. We got a penalty plus a DQ for a second infraction.

That play was shown clearly on the webcast and the 111 drivers definitely did immediately back down off the ball, then clear the ball before crossing the bump. After Update 16 there should have been no penalty and even before Update 16 there should not have been a yellow card.

If anything this rule is being called more strictly at Wisconsin than at any event than was webcast last week. From what I can tell they were giving a yellow card for every infraction, even before the update a yellow card should only be given if no immediate attempt is made to fix the incursion.

EDIT:
Jeff,

From what I saw (which was quite a few matches from Florida, WPI, Pittsburgh and Arizona) it appeared that there were a lot less ball incursion violations being called at these events compared to week 1 events.

[paragon571]

yea so in our reginal at wpi only one team got a yellow card for flipping over a robot and our team got doubled penalty for crossing the line our first match

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

From what I saw (which was quite a few matches from Florida, WPI, Pittsburgh and Arizona) it appeared that there were a lot less ball incursion violations being called at these events compared to week 1 events.

I have yet to see a penalty for WPI ball incursion. On the off chance it happens, it's corrected immediately by the driver and no one flags it.

I'd be really pissed if this happened to me, and being told "my ref made the correct call" despite quoting a rule that directly contradicts them that costs you QP.