How does 469 not violate <R19>?

[Russ Beavis]

Check out G30.C

<G30> ROBOT Volume – During a MATCH, no part of the ROBOT shall extend outside the vertical projection of the FRAME PERIMETER, except as follows:
a. BALL Interaction Volume – Solely for the purposes of interacting with a BALL, MECHANISMS that are below the BUMPER may extend up to the BUMPER PERIMETER, for a period not exceeding two seconds. After returning inside the FRAMER PERIMETER, such MECHANISMS are not permitted to re-extend beyond the FRAME PERIMETER for at least two seconds.
b. ROBOT Righting Volume - ROBOTS attempting to right themselves or their ALLIANCE partners may expand up to the FINALE CONFIGURATION maximum volume while, and only while, performing the righting operation. While beyond the NORMAL CONFIGURATION volume and righting, ROBOTS may not actively interact with BALLS or opponent ROBOTS.
c. TOWER Contact ROBOT Volume - During a MATCH, ROBOTS in contact with their ALLIANCE TOWER may extend beyond their NORMAL CONFIGURATION volume but may not exceed the FINALE CONFIGURATION maximum volume.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by John G

The finale period only has rules about the last 20 seconds. So can any robot expand without bound ( up to the field perimeter) until the last 20 seconds, or am I over analyzing this? The rules only prevent you from being outside the frame limits when the match starts and the finale, but nothing about the middle 100 seconds.

No, robots are always bound by one of two volume limitations, the NORMAL CONFIGURATION or the FINALE CONFIGURATION.

469 uses <G30-c> to expand to the FINALE CONFIGURATION before the FINALE

<G30> ROBOT Volume – During a MATCH, no part of the ROBOT shall extend outside the vertical projection of the FRAME PERIMETER, except as follows:
...
c. TOWER Contact ROBOT Volume - During a MATCH, ROBOTS in contact with their ALLIANCE TOWER may extend beyond their NORMAL CONFIGURATION volume but may not exceed the FINALE CONFIGURATION maximum volume.
...

[John G]

Ok. Thank you. Isn't their still an x amount of time where the are extended past the frame perimeter and not in contact with the tower though, being a penalty, or not, as long as they touch the tower within 5 seconds? (it appears to me that for half a second or so, when their ball controller is rasing up, they extend past 5ft and are not in contact with the tower yet)

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by John G

Ok. Thank you. Isn't their an x amount of time where the are extended past the frame perimeter and not incontact with the tower, being a penalty, or not as long as they touch the tower within 5 seconds?

They drive partially underneath the tunnel and contact the tower before unfolding any of their mechanism from the video I have seen.

[Thuperscout]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

The drive partially underneath the tunnel and contact the tower before unfolding any of their mechanism from the video I have seen.

You are correct, they go underneath the tunnel partially, and have a spring- board that pushes up against the tunnel to wedge them in place. Then their mechanism unfolds.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Wayne Doenges

A scenario I can see happening is 469 gets into position and starts to cycle balls into their goal. Their opponents, knowing they can't beat them, do nothing but watch. They get the winners score but why give 469's team any coopertition points.
Winners get 5 more points than losers.
Just my opinion. *flame suit on*

Interesting that you should mention this.

Instead of 'doing nothing' the opponent tries to flood 469s human players so that they cannot keep up with the soccer balls and may not be able to reintroduce them quickly enough (because they'll jam ... etc).

Just another thought at getting more seeding points than your opponent.

[Radical Pi]

I'm surprised nobody has come up with a (kinda obvious) solution: push them

As far as I know, tower protection doesn't start until finale. A robot with a high-traction drive system (such as treads) and is short enough to fit under the tower could play in the far zone and try to just push 469 away from the tower. I don't know too much about their drive system, but if you can get enough force on them then they could be pushed out of the tower, forcing them to lower the return system (if they can). The inital release would probably be considered forced by another robot, but if they don't pull it back down there could be a G30 penalty on them. Also, the pure fact that their return is no longer working would mean balls would roll back into midfield, where another cleanup bot could kick them to the near zone, taking balls out of the 469 loop

Highly dependent on how firmly they are in the tower and if you can find a robot that fits under the tower and could push them (639 might have a chance, but we will never see them at competition)

[John G]

Thank you for clarifying thuperscout.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Radical Pi

I'm surprised nobody has come up with a (kinda obvious) solution: push them

As far as I know, tower protection doesn't start until finale. A robot with a high-traction drive system (such as treads) and is short enough to fit under the tower could play in the far zone and try to just push 469 away from the tower. I don't know too much about their drive system, but if you can get enough force on them then they could be pushed out of the tower, forcing them to lower the return system (if they can). The inital release would probably be considered forced by another robot, but if they don't pull it back down there could be a G30 penalty on them. Also, the pure fact that their return is no longer working would mean balls would roll back into midfield, where another cleanup bot could kick them to the near zone, taking balls out of the 469 loop

Highly dependent on how firmly they are in the tower and if you can find a robot that fits under the tower and could push them (639 might have a chance, but we will never see them at competition)

It's been established that 469 dramatically increases their normal force by reacting against the top of the tunnel. Pushing them isn't very easy or possible.

[David Dawson]

Originally Posted by Radical Pi

I'm surprised nobody has come up with a (kinda obvious) solution: push them


Highly dependent on how firmly they are in the tower and if you can find a robot that fits under the tower and could push them (639 might have a chance, but we will never see them at competition)

This "will" break the field

[Radical Pi]

Originally Posted by David Dawson

This "will" break the field

That much force from the springboard? forget that plan

[synth3tk]

Originally Posted by Radical Pi

That much force from the springboard? forget that plan

Watch the one video that's posted. The blue near-side robot tried to bump 469, and yet 469 did not budge one bit.

It's a purt-near flawless system on paper, and as of now, in practice.

[JGurnow]

Originally Posted by Radical Pi

That much force from the springboard? forget that plan

There is more then just a spring board, they also latch onto the interior tubes of the tower, the only way to move them is to move the tower with them. You could see the tower shift when 469 deployed its latches. You won't move them when they are in place.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by David Dawson

This "will" break the field

Interesting point. As field damage caused by a robot grasping field elements is always deemed the fault of said grasping robot. Even if caused by another robot colliding with said grasping robot.

Anyways, I'm man enough to say that I'm just plain jealous that they took this idea and made it work so well. We were briefly thinking about something like this, but missed some of the key refinements that make this work so well for them. Most particularly rolling the balls off the bumps to hurrying them along to the goals.

So, I'm having a difficult time coming up with a plan of attack against these guys. My only thoughts are a combination of denying them the tunnel for as long as possible and blocking and clearing balls as quickly as possible. This focuses 2 of your bots on defending this single bot, which isn't an obvious strategy for success in itself.

Relevant question I've posted to the Q&A however:
How does G37 impact 469's robot? G37 allows for outside the bumper contact with robots expanded outside their normal configuration and in the process of being elevated or suspended. 469 is clearly the former and clearly not the latter. Will a team be penalized and/or red carded for intentionally touching one of those chutes? This has bearing on many other robots that expand outside the normal perimeter but do not or cannot immediately begin elevating or suspending. We'll see what the GDC has to say. If anything.

[JGurnow]

A team cannot be made to have a penalty by the actions of another team. That is why being pushed into an opposing alliance robot by their teammate will not result in a penalty for either team.

You can't cause others to get penalties, if you do neither team gets said penalty, it just goes away.