FRC Qual Rounds on Thursday @ Championship

[Gary Dillard]

Wow. If you do the math on inspecting (I've inspected at the Championship the last 2 years):

Last year there were 348 teams (~86 per division) and we had 4-5 inspectors per division. We started a little late since some things weren't set up and got almost everyone through by close of the pits at 8:00; maybe 2-3 teams per division left on Friday to push through before qualifying started. It takes about 20 - 25 minutes to do an inspection at the Championship, since (hopefully) most of the major stuff has already been caught during regional inspections. That more or less agrees with 348 inspections x .5 inspector-hours / 16 inspectors = ~ 11 hours. Now we're cutting the time in half, so to get the same number of teams through we'll need twice as many inspectors. Plus probably 2 sizing booths and weighing stations per division since that is the biggest bottle neck (need additional inspectors to run those full time).

I guess I better get my Venti Latte with an extra shot or two on Thursday Morning.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Jon Jack

However, my fear is that teams that are not prepared will not pass inspection.

Teams will already have passed inspection at a regional competition. They should all be prepared to pass at Championship pretty much right out of the crate, no? It's not like anyone will have made major changes to their robot while it was in transit to Atlanta.

I'm also afraid that FIRST is underestimating the amount of time it will take to inspect 380-something teams. Last year it took us over an hour to go through inspection. Granted, changes can be made to the inspection process to speed things up... Let just hope FIRST makes those changes.

This is a real concern. Even if it only takes ten minutes per team, that's still on the order of fifteen hours of inspection per division to cram into a morning somehow.

[Kevin Sevcik]

This probably explains that email I got asking for qualified individuals heading to championships to volunteer as inspectors....

I'm questioning whether it matters that teams have already passed inspections at regionals. That cuts down drastically on the teams you send back to the pits for fixes, sure, but you still have to run down your checklist for each team. Unless you're just skimming the list and only looking for obvious changes or difficulties, that's still gonna chew up your time.

Also, I think rudimentary time analyses are going to fail here. Assuming .5 hours per team and all that only works if teams are perfectly distributed throughout the day. And we all know that's not true. It's even less likely to be true with this compressed schedule. Unless you start forcibly queuing up teams for inspections, you're not likely to get 100% efficiency from your inspectors. I'm thinking you're going to need more like 2.5x or 3x the inspectors to get things done if you're not running an abbreviated inspection process.

[Gary Dillard]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Teams will already have passed inspection at a regional competition. They should all be prepared to pass at Championship pretty much right out of the crate, no?

You'd think so, but I have yet to see that happen. The teams that pass inspection clean the first time through are the exception, not the rule. Like I said, historically it takes 20-25 minutes per team on average at the Championship.

[BrendanB]

The biggest issues with getting past inspection at Championships are teams making significant changes to their design and holding off to inspect until minor issues are ironed out: ball handling/kicker modifications, code, autonomous, stuff like that. Teams who uncrate a working robot with little to no changes to be made have no excuse to wait for inspection. Also, this is Championships, FIRST is probably expecting teams to be ready for competition with many teams competing at two events this year. But are robots ever perfect, no. I like having more qualification matches, but I think we can deal with having less time for inspections and changes if there are more inspectors and if teams are proactive about getting done/inspected.

What I wish they would allow teams to do is give us more time on Wednesday night to uncrate and set up our pits/unpack so everyone is set to go bright and early Thursday morning. I believe they allow teams to bring stuff in Wednesday, but no pit assembly can be done which in my mind wastes time Thursday morning when we have to organize the pit before working on our robot. It might not seem like a ton of time, but it is work that could have been done the night before.

Just my thoughts, but am still excited for more matches on Thursday!

[Josh Drake]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

What I wish they would allow teams to do is give us more time on Wednesday night to uncrate and set up our pits/unpack so everyone is set to go bright and early Thursday morning. I believe they allow teams to bring stuff in Wednesday, but no pit assembly can be done which in my mind wastes time Thursday morning when we have to organize the pit before working on our robot. It might not seem like a ton of time, but it is work that could have been done the night before.

Just my thoughts, but am still excited for more matches on Thursday!

I agree. The pits could be set up Wednesday, and teams could hit the ground running Thursday morning. A lot of teams get the hotel room in Atlanta on Wednesday night, and are only allowed to uncrate. Teams would get more out of their stay if they were allowed to do more.

[Kims Robot]

Anyone ask in the Q&A yet??

Something like "In light of the Championship schedule change, could teams be allowed to do weight/size & WPA inspection as well as set up their pits [but not do robot work] on Wednesday evening to help streamline the process?"

Honestly my guess is it will come down to something weird like they dont have insurance on Wednesday or something, but it is very likely worth asking.

[rees2001]

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

Anyone ask in the Q&A yet??

Something like "In light of the Championship schedule change, could teams be allowed to do weight/size & WPA inspection as well as set up their pits [but not do robot work] on Wednesday evening to help streamline the process?"

Honestly my guess is it will come down to something weird like they dont have insurance on Wednesday or something, but it is very likely worth asking.

I can see the WPA thing and pit setup but they probably won't want to start inspection. That opens a door too many teams have abused in the past.

What would happen if we ALL asked?

Go thinking Kim.


** edit - question asked **

[Stephen Kowski]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

It's not like anyone will have made major changes to their robot while it was in transit to Atlanta.

Couldn't disagree more, the 65 lbs withholding allowance is for EACH event. Why wouldn't you want to try to improve a mechanism or add a new feature? I guess the reason now is you may miss your first or second match if you attempt it.

[Dancin103]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I like how the schedule still says the Closing Ceremonies will only take 2 hours.

hahaha Yeah I saw that and was like ok right. It has never taken less than that.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

OK,
In the past, inspections at the Champs were just like everywhere else. Although we strive to make inspections consistent, teams are still showing up at the Champs with severe issues. I estimate about 25% of the teams need moderate to severe rework to become compliant. Even with all the training, new inspectors do not catch everything at the regional level. We find undersized wiring, poorly constructed and mounted bumpers, illegal motors, illegal pneumatics, sharp edges and metal that can contact the floor. Add to that list ball intrusion, unsafe kickers, and bumper height for this year's rules and game changes. I hope that the my Inspection thread is helping correct some of those problems but (if you can believe it) many teams do not look at Chief Delphi as a source of information. Nor do these same teams read the Q&A or Team Updates.

The four division LRI's (myself included) are just starting to discuss possible workarounds for the new schedule. Our volunteer coordinator has thus far managed to book 40 inspectors, including the LRI's. Will that be enough? I don't know yet. As to starting inspections on Wednesday, many inspectors are still in transit at 6PM, myself included. Whether it is practical will be investigated in the coming days. Inspections this year are running more like 20-30 minutes each excluding WPA and Jaguar CAN firmware checks. Make our lives easier if you are using CAN, be prepared to demonstrate that each CAN connected device has the right firmware upgrades at every event! This requires a serial interface be connected to the black Jag and that you show each CAN address and firmware to the inspector. If you haven't installed the latest Jag firmware, it is a must do before you compete.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Ten inspectors at a 50 team event do not a guarantee make.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Ten inspectors at a 50 team event do not a guarantee make.

I believe that our regional only had 8 but still, at least you have them!

[Nawaid Ladak]

Originally Posted by The Lucas

Perhaps FIRST should allow teams the option to get weighted/sized and WPA Key on Wed night. That wouldn't take more than 3 team representatives and a few inspectors per division. It could really accelerate the inspection Thursday morning for those teams that are ready and lessen the rush on the inspectors.

I think this would solve A LOT of problems. No withholding allowance allowed Wednesday night. set up a 3hr window for inspections. If you do not pass inspection on your first try (Wednesday night). you cannot be inspected until the next morning.

[Chris Fultz]

I really like the idea of inspections on Wednesday night, even if just weight and size. Then maybe inspectors could travel to the teams for the other stuff?

I like the idea of starting early and having more matches, but worry about the teams standing in line for inspection while their alliance is taking the field...