disaster in israel regional

[Tottanka]

Originally Posted by MikePres

- 3076 ate our food, stole our drink cans, put their stickers all over our belongings, even though we told them not to. they even had the courage to ask us to take them to our alliance. GOD!

- A detonator was thrown into our pit and exploded after the event and some of our students were hurt. I hope that FIRST Israel will find the responsible and punish them as needed. Who brings firecrackers to a robotics event?!

- Our medallions were taken by another team (probably). When we came to take our medallions we found out that somebody already took them. What the hell?!

- As Jon said, the Coopertition award was not handed out, and we understand why. I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be ours...



- We respected the request of 1690 and 2630 not to pick them so they could be with each other. we are humans after all and this game is not only strategy for us, even though that could have been the most dangerous alliance ever. it's a shame how many teams tried to convince us to break that partnership just to make the life of others easier. it's a shame imo that 2672 did break that alliance in the end...
)

just a comment about those things.

- Breaking a strong alliance is a tactic well known to FIRST and it has been used by very GP teams in previous years. It's a part of the competition, and just in the same way that you are "ashamed" someone didn't let them unite, i can say that there are people who are "ashamed" that teams decline invitations. If 1690 agreed, they might have won, who knows.

- Don't be so sure that this award should have been yours. It's not GP to say and even think so in my opinion. It's just an award and if you think you deserve it, it's far more important. If the Judges were so sure that this award belong to a team, that team would have received it.

- Call FIRST and ask for medallions. They will be provided, you fully deserve them.

- The firecracker issue has nothing to do with FIRST. You may go and tell the police about the incident. if you please.

- Who is 3076, and how the hell did they eat your food? and how are you sure it was them. The fact that they put some stickers around your pit and in it doesnt mean they ate your food. Do not be so quick to blame others.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by Tottanka

- Don't be so sure that this award should have been yours. It's not GP to say and even think so in my opinion. It's just an award and if you think you deserve it, it's far more important. If the Judges were so sure that this award belong to a team, that team would have received it.

According to the results posted on FIRSTs website, team 3088 was the team that *should* have received the Coopertition(TM) Award. This award is to be awarded to the team that receives the most Coopertition Points.

I suspect that it was not awarded due to the abnormally low number of matches played.

I disagree that it is "un-GP" to claim that one deserved a merit based award such as this, when the person making that claim did GENUINELY meet the requirements for the award.

[Tottanka]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

According to the results posted on FIRSTs website, team 3088 was the team that *should* have received the Coopertition(TM) Award. This award is to be awarded to the team that receives the most Coopertition Points.

I suspect that it was not awarded due to the abnormally low number of matches played.

I disagree that it is "un-GP" to claim that one deserved a merit based award such as this, when the person making that claim did GENUINELY meet the requirements for the award.

In this case i have been wrong, and take my words back. They do deserve this award and should contact FIRST in order to receive it.

[MikePres]

Originally Posted by Tottanka

just a comment about those things.

- Breaking a strong alliance is a tactic well known to FIRST and it has been used by very GP teams in previous years. It's a part of the competition, and just in the same way that you are "ashamed" someone didn't let them unite, i can say that there are people who are "ashamed" that teams decline invitations. If 1690 agreed, they might have won, who knows.

- Don't be so sure that this award should have been yours. It's not GP to say and even think so in my opinion. It's just an award and if you think you deserve it, it's far more important. If the Judges were so sure that this award belong to a team, that team would have received it.

- Call FIRST and ask for medallions. They will be provided, you fully deserve them.

- The firecracker issue has nothing to do with FIRST. You may go and tell the police about the incident. if you please.

- Who is 3076, and how the hell did they eat your food? and how are you sure it was them. The fact that they put some stickers around your pit and in it doesnt mean they ate your food. Do not be so quick to blame others.

Liron, i'm very disappointed that a fellow Israeli FIRSTer decries our claims as if we invented them and as if it's our hobby to complain about "minor" stuff.

- About breaking alliances: we didn't want to break that alliance because we wanted the worse for others, it's because those teams bagged us not to, and we respected their request. There are things that are above winning in life. And who knows, maybe we wanted that alliance to be so that the Israel Regional will send the best bots to Atlanta and not the teams the scheme the best against others. from our POV, we did our best and got to the quarter's. Every match after that was a bonus. Call us naive, call us losers, but at least we have a clear conscience. If we did a mistake - that's our job as captains, to make the best and worst decisions for our team. If we did a mistake - next season our team gonna choose new captains that will shape 3088's ideals. It's the job of our youngsters to learn from our mistakes, but till then - that's the way we're gonna play. honest and clean.

- About the award: I checked the rules, i know what you need to do to achieve it. As far as i know, we were supposed to get it, check the game stats yourself. If I have a mistake - i'm deeply sorry and congrats to those who did won it. I mentioned the award just to emphasize what our team went through and still we didn't made a fuss about it in the event - that is GP.

- We sent an e-mail to Gal, i hope he'll answer soon. I know that our medallions are the last thing he is worried about these days...

- About the firecracker: like, HELLO?! didn't you read correctly when i said some of my friends got hurt?! of course everything that happens in FRC is under the responsibility of FIRST! What if someone would have gotten shot in the head and died? is that still fine by FIRST and only the police to investigate? I would really love to see team XXXX still in the competition in 2011 if it was found out, let's say, that one of the students was responsible for the death of someone else. Moreover, isn't it the job of security to verify that no ammo or dangerous equipment enters the competition area? i think that's at least the responsibility of FIRST...
(I know we signed something about they not responsible for our deaths but there's a limit ><)

- 3076 is Arad "Lynx". We know that they did what they did because we have EYES. Food: We were eating our pizza in our, right? than one of their teammates (their pit was next to our's) comes to our pit, in front of our eyes, grabs a slice and takes a bite out of it and leaves it where it was. we were in complete shock. it that a way to behave? is that GP?
I'm not so sure about the cans, though, but we did see a couple of their mates drink our limited edition Fanta cans in the pit and field (the cans were delivered directly and specially for our team from our sponsors). beats me how they got so rare cans while we lost ours...
Oh, and the stickers! when i say belongings, i don't mean "my bag that just lied there", oh no, i mean they come to my friends and just stick those on their shirts, pants, name tags, cellphones - while they still hold them!!! and again, while they undoubtedly refused to that! I'm seriously appalled by some of 3076 members' behavior. I thought that FIRST raises the elite of society. If that is our elite, we all should be very worried.

[Tottanka]

Michael,
About the award, i apologized and like i said it is fully deserved. I didn't know the requirements.
FIRST cant take responsibility of every team's actions, and blaming FIRST isn't even logical in the case of the events you mentioned.
The system can't keep an eye on each and every psycho out there willing to bring in firecrackes, be logical. If you knoww hat team did it, go ahead and tell that to FIRST and i'm sure they will take care of it and that this team will not be back. If you don't know who did it, don't expect FIRST to know, it's no FBI.]

There is nothing unhonest about offering a team to join you, it is your full right as a top seeded team. I don't think you can judge those teams and go as far as saying that this is a stain on FIRST Israel. It is their team's desicion and it is just as clean and fair as any other decision out there.

About team 3076. Did you talk to them yourself about the stickers, and did they still do that? If yes, did you complain to FIRST?

[brianelite]

FIRST is hosting the event and is responsible for security. That is why robots are inspected for safety by FIRST.

These are incredibly serious issues. These issues would be an outrage at any public event - and FIRST has WAYYY higher standards then other public events.

-Explosive thrown in teams pit
-Brawl with security and teams
-Fight between teams
-Theft
-Vandalism
-Racial slurs
-Intentional Disruption of matches
-Coaches/Mentors encouraging some/all of these activities

If safety cannot be guaranteed there cannot be an event. FIRST will either have to cancel the event or employ security forces if the event will continue next year... Imagine that.. FIRST increasing security.

[MikePres]

Originally Posted by Tottanka

Michael,
FIRST cant take responsibility of every team's actions, and blaming FIRST isn't even logical in the case of the events you mentioned.
The system can't keep an eye on each and every psycho out there willing to bring in firecrackes, be logical. If you knoww hat team did it, go ahead and tell that to FIRST and i'm sure they will take care of it and that this team will not be back. If you don't know who did it, don't expect FIRST to know, it's no FBI.]

There is nothing unhonest about offering a team to join you, it is your full right as a top seeded team. I don't think you can judge those teams and go as far as saying that this is a stain on FIRST Israel. It is their team's desicion and it is just as clean and fair as any other decision out there.

About team 3076. Did you talk to them yourself about the stickers, and did they still do that? If yes, did you complain to FIRST?

I don't expect them to be FBI, just FIRST. with all respect, this issues shouldn't have happened and i hope it was the last time. I encourage the FIRST Israel staff to make all the right conclusions for next year so that we won't find ourselves in a similar thread next year.

I know, i didn't say it isn't legal or isn't fair, it's okay, but we prefer not to do stuff in that way. Maybe next year we'll understand that in the end it's just a game...

We asked them no to do it and they did. we didn't complain to FIRST but i did washed one of their representatives verbally (explaining why we won't take them to our alliance, not cursing or something). i know that not all 3076 teammates are like that and i hope that it was enough to change something there for the next season.

Originally Posted by brianelite

FIRST is hosting the event and is responsible for security. That is why robots are inspected for safety by FIRST.

These are incredibly serious issues. These issues would be an outrage at any public event - and FIRST has WAYYY higher standards then other public events.

-Explosive thrown in teams pit
-Brawl with security and teams
-Fight between teams
-Theft
-Vandalism
-Racial slurs
-Intentional Disruption of matches
-Coaches/Mentors encouraging some/all of these activities

If safety cannot be guaranteed there cannot be an event. FIRST will either have to cancel the event or employ security forces if the event will continue next year... Imagine that.. FIRST increasing security.

there is no doubt that we had a lot of problems this year but still this is a great regional to participate in. the majority of teams in israel are really good people with great mind and big hearts. a lot of teams help each other (we helped and were helped this year ) and there's no real reason to eliminate this Regional. yes, we had some problems, but all regionals have some. I'm sure FIRST Israel already started preparations for a better next season. don't forget about all the logistics involved here that complicate things... I hope all the problems are going to be discussed with US FIRST too and proper solutions will be picked.
I think that all teams should go through a united seminar to remind what is exactly GP and that Award are for achievements and not the opposite. every team should also make greater efforts to explain those to its community. I said my team in the beginning of this year: "We're not gonna do charity for Chairman's, we'll enter Chairman's only if we'll do charity and community work, and it depends on people" and that's why we didn't enter Chairman's this year. I wanted my team to be rewarded for something they do, not because they do it for the award. Maybe if our crowds understood better what is GP and FIRST all about - maybe all that happed will not happen again. It's a process, it's a birth, and we have our own growing pain.

i believe that if our community will work together, everything's gonna be all right in the end

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by MikePres

I think that all teams should go through a united seminar to remind what is exactly GP and that Award are for achievements and not the opposite. every team should also make greater efforts to explain those to its community. I said my team in the beginning of this year: "We're not gonna do charity for Chairman's, we'll enter Chairman's only if we'll do charity and community work, and it depends on people" and that's why we didn't enter Chairman's this year. I wanted my team to be rewarded for something they do, not because they do it for the award. Maybe if our crowds understood better what is GP and FIRST all about - maybe all that happed will not happen again. It's a process, it's a birth, and we have our own growing pain.

i believe that if our community will work together, everything's gonna be all right in the end

There is a lot of wisdom in this. The more the community understands what the teams are doing and working towards, the more the community can support their efforts in positive and helpful ways. The more the teams work together to help the community develop a deeper understanding, the more opportunities will arise.

Great ideas, Mike. I also agree with and understand your statement about the process, the birth, and the growing pains.
--
Let's not bash, criticize, and pile on - especially if we were not at the regional. It does not help the situation in any way.

Jane

[yarden.saa]

for the people who don't know, 2 days before the competition there was a pre season competition in Benyamina. the robots worked perfectly well. my team was the only rookie team in the pre season and it was a big honor for us. no one said it before on this thread but the first spirit in the competition was on it's best. teams were helping each other. for example when one of the volunteers said in the microphone that the turkish team was needed to some pneumatic items I was runnimg to the with the things they need to. when my team was needing something all the teams were hadful to help us.

FIRST Spirit was on it's best!

the field communication problems embarrassing and the reason to this problem was that the orginizers did not arrange the competition as it was needing to. my mum is an VP in Congress Operations company and she said the orginizers did not bring the right people to solve the problem and they were just testing the system in the days of the competition (even a week before the competitin is not enough). there was not any one from USFIRST who know the field systems. by the experience of the last year when FIRST were using the army frequency they could ask to get confirmation to use 5GH if I have know this problem earlier I would have use my connections to the army toget this confirmation. if my team was not the the winner of the rookie all star award. I promise you the only reason why my team would come apart is the frustration of the communication problems.


see the post of team 3316 on this thread who were in our alliance at the qr final.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by yarden.saa

for the people who don't know, 2 days before the competition there was a pre season competition in Benyamina. the robots worked perfectly well.

With real robots, or practice robots? And what field management system was running (the full competition FMS, or FMS Lite)?

Also, if that scrimmage was with real robots, and this was a sanctioned occurrence, FIRST should have stated publicly (perhaps in an update) that it was giving teams attending this regional a waiver from some of the fabrication schedule and shipping requirements.

If it wasn't sanctioned by FIRST, who let the robots out? (Access to robots outside of the approved periods is serious business.)

[Leav]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

With real robots, or practice robots? And what field management system was running (the full competition FMS, or FMS Lite)?

Also, if that scrimmage was with real robots, and this was a sanctioned occurrence, FIRST should have stated publicly (perhaps in an update) that it was giving teams attending this regional a waiver from some of the fabrication schedule and shipping requirements.

If it wasn't sanctioned by FIRST, who let the robots out? (Access to robots outside of the approved periods is serious business.)

Obviously this was with practice robots, with parts from the 65 pound withholding allowence (and held in a high-school gym)

despite yarden's comments I'd like to say that communication problems were present in the pre-season event because we were not running any FMS at all, but rather just enabling robots for ~10 min matches.

each DS had it's own router and wifi network, which caused alot of interference. we tried changing the channels, but this was both time consuming to do, and not a perfect solution since wifi channels overlap.

Hindsight being 20/20, It's obvious that the best solution would have been to get 6 demo robots and test the field system beforehand. I'm not sure this would have been obvious to anyone before the fiasco started.

-Leav

[yarden.saa]

Originally Posted by Leav

It's obvious that the best solution would have been to get 6 demo robots and test the field system beforehand. I'm not sure this would have been obvious to anyone before the fiasco started.

-Leav

Now it should be obvious to the next year.
Regretfully I have to say it that NOKIA ARENA-the best arena in Israel is not the best arena to FIRST competition although TEL AVIV municipality give it to FIRST for free to 3 days, we can't let the competition to be there, because is there is a delay the orginizers can't take more day to the competition.

[Tottanka]

Originally Posted by yarden.saa

Now it should be obvious to the next year.
Regretfully I have to say it that NOKIA ARENA-the best arena in Israel is not the best arena to FIRST competition although TEL AVIV municipality give it to FIRST for free to 3 days, we can't let the competition to be there, because is there is a delay the orginizers can't take more day to the competition.

Do you have any better FREE suggestions?

[Mori1578]

I'm sure there is a school who won't have a problem to give its gym or something like that for 5 days (3 for the competition+one for building everything+one for taking away everything).
I must say that i rather have an organized, without any time pressure, regional in a gym than a regional like this in the biggest arena in israel :S

[Tottanka]

Originally Posted by Mori1578

I'm sure there is a school who won't have a problem to give its gym or something like that for 5 days (3 for the competition+one for building everything+one for taking away everything).
I must say that i rather have an organized, without any time pressure, regional in a gym than a regional like this in the biggest arena in israel :S

If you know any school who has a gym with 3000 sits, and place for a pit, let me know.