disaster in israel regional

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by keehun

Let's show Dean, Woodie, and rest of FIRST that we can handle minor hiccups like those that went down in Israel.

You call countless communication issues, teams only being able to play three official qualifying matches, elimination rounds decided on a coin toss, food being thrown at competitors and the use of racial slurs to be a "minor hiccup"? I'm all for looking for the positive in situations, but at a certain point we need to be realistic. I'd hate to ever see what it would take for you to call something a major hiccup. Elephants stampeding the field?

Gracious Professionalism is a two way street. 55 teams participated at the Israel Regional and from most descriptions, most of these teams handled the extreme adversity that was thrown at them with a lot of class. Despite the best efforts of the FIRST staff and local volunteers, the event sounds like it was a relative disaster. I'm not assigning blame here, but I'm just calling a spade a spade. The gracious and professional thing for FIRST to do is offer some sort of compensation or registration credit for all teams attending the event. Say I went to a restaurant and a water main blew, soaking myself and all the other customers. The graciously professional way for me to handle the situation would be to politely express my displeasure to the management and offer some help. The graciously professional response from the restaurant would be to refund my meal and offer me some sort of discount in the future. It's not something I would demand, but I sure would appreciate the olive branch.

Teams spent six long and hard weeks preparing for this event. 31 teams at this event only played 3 official matches. That's six minutes and forty-five seconds of robot action. For some people, this will be the only experience of their FIRST careers. At the end of the day do you really think it's appropriate to pat them on the back and say "Sorry, there's nothing we can do. At least you learned something about dealing with adversity!".

One possible solution to reward these teams. Perhaps there could be an "unofficial, yet official" off-season event this summer, where teams would play Breakaway with all the pomp and circumstance of an official regional. To top things off, grant qualification spots to winners to attend the 2011 World Championship. We clearly can't replay the 2010 Israel Regional, but maybe something like this would provide an avenue for these teams to get some level of redemption.

[Mori1578]

I have to agree with everyone here, even though there are two opposite opinions about this regional.
I -MUST- say that even after the first two days destroyed every bit of optimism, most (but not all) of the teams still played a fair game with their head high.
We worked on our robot, like everyone did, on every available moment just for those six and a half minutes of glory.
We didn't let any problem to get us down - we just kept on playing.
This competition is much more than winning or playing - it's a life chaging event.
The fact that we had a fully-functional robot, after all we have been through, as a team of only 17 years old was enough to make us happy.We just knew that we did it, even if we didn't have the chance to "show off" our bot.

First have, and will allways have place in israel. I saw all the teams helping each other - if its giving away your classmate's battery even if you have a match 5 minutes later or fixing your opponents' bot 5 minutes before your game (both happened to me and i know it happened to many more).

It was my second year in First after re-opening our school , and im sure there will be a third year. A few communication problems won't take us down

A really big off-season event is a "must have" in this situation, and we will get there.

I hope to see all the teams next year, and of course many of the awesome rookie teams (12 of them!!) who made awesome bots for a first year!

Yaar,Team 1578.

[Bob Steele]

My heart goes out to Michelle Graf.....
She was our emcee in Oregon.... she is a terrific person and a joy to be around.
I can't even imagine trying to keep this Regional moving and fun but I would be willing to say that I bet she gave her best the entire time...

I also bet that she will be one of the first to step up and volunteer to do it again.

Thank you Michelle...

As a longtime member of FIRST I am saddened by all of this...but we all need to remember that it is easy to sit back and criticize...

Walk a weekend in their shoes...(or a lifetime...) and see what you would do...

I hope to see the teams from Israel at Atlanta...and I sincerely hope that none of them are disheartened by all of this.... remember its not about the robot...(easy for me to say...)

I really want to congratulate the teams from Israel.... sticking with this... through the pain and stress and disappointment....I don't know if I could have done it... You guys rock!! Please remember that it really doesn't matter who wins...you all won... you all should get trophies... You are all our brothers and sisters....

Again... thank you Michelle and thank you everyone from FIRST that worked so hard to try and fix this under unbelievable stress conditions.

Washington Teams and FIRST loves you Michelle!!!

[Southern Spy]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Perhaps there could be an "unofficial, yet official" off-season event this summer, where teams would play Breakaway with all the pomp and circumstance of an official regional. To top things off, grant qualification spots to winners to attend the 2011 World Championship.

This would be the best solution possible. FIRST stepped up to the plate with the unprecedented Team Update 16 that revised the broken qual system, here's another chance for them to show some Gracious Professionialism by reacting to the unfortunate circumstances these teams experienced.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Karthik

One possible solution to reward these teams. Perhaps there could be an "unofficial, yet official" off-season event this summer, where teams would play Breakaway with all the pomp and circumstance of an official regional.

And send the FTA crew from NH Regional to run it. They seem to be the only regional that doesn't experience the field problems and delays. Maybe they can teach the local Isreali crew how to do it for future years.

[Tottanka]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

And send the FTA crew from NH Regional to run it. They seem to be the only regional that doesn't experience the field problems and delays. Maybe they can teach the local Isreali crew how to do it for future years.

They have.
The problem isn't with the staff or the field, the problem is that those technologies don't feet Israel. Many changes have to be made and somewhere along the road something got loose.
We use 230V, different radios, different routers, different software, different language.

[Leav]

Liron,
I think he meant an FTA from FIRST HQ in Manchester, which you obviously know didn't happen in 2009 (Liron and I co FTA'd in 2009 ) and it is also obvious it didn't happen this year.

This is a fair suggestion which I'm sure will be implemented next year.

-Leav

[MikePres]

Originally Posted by Tottanka

just a comment about those things.

- Breaking a strong alliance is a tactic well known to FIRST and it has been used by very GP teams in previous years. It's a part of the competition, and just in the same way that you are "ashamed" someone didn't let them unite, i can say that there are people who are "ashamed" that teams decline invitations. If 1690 agreed, they might have won, who knows.

- Don't be so sure that this award should have been yours. It's not GP to say and even think so in my opinion. It's just an award and if you think you deserve it, it's far more important. If the Judges were so sure that this award belong to a team, that team would have received it.

- Call FIRST and ask for medallions. They will be provided, you fully deserve them.

- The firecracker issue has nothing to do with FIRST. You may go and tell the police about the incident. if you please.

- Who is 3076, and how the hell did they eat your food? and how are you sure it was them. The fact that they put some stickers around your pit and in it doesnt mean they ate your food. Do not be so quick to blame others.

Liron, i'm very disappointed that a fellow Israeli FIRSTer decries our claims as if we invented them and as if it's our hobby to complain about "minor" stuff.

- About breaking alliances: we didn't want to break that alliance because we wanted the worse for others, it's because those teams bagged us not to, and we respected their request. There are things that are above winning in life. And who knows, maybe we wanted that alliance to be so that the Israel Regional will send the best bots to Atlanta and not the teams the scheme the best against others. from our POV, we did our best and got to the quarter's. Every match after that was a bonus. Call us naive, call us losers, but at least we have a clear conscience. If we did a mistake - that's our job as captains, to make the best and worst decisions for our team. If we did a mistake - next season our team gonna choose new captains that will shape 3088's ideals. It's the job of our youngsters to learn from our mistakes, but till then - that's the way we're gonna play. honest and clean.

- About the award: I checked the rules, i know what you need to do to achieve it. As far as i know, we were supposed to get it, check the game stats yourself. If I have a mistake - i'm deeply sorry and congrats to those who did won it. I mentioned the award just to emphasize what our team went through and still we didn't made a fuss about it in the event - that is GP.

- We sent an e-mail to Gal, i hope he'll answer soon. I know that our medallions are the last thing he is worried about these days...

- About the firecracker: like, HELLO?! didn't you read correctly when i said some of my friends got hurt?! of course everything that happens in FRC is under the responsibility of FIRST! What if someone would have gotten shot in the head and died? is that still fine by FIRST and only the police to investigate? I would really love to see team XXXX still in the competition in 2011 if it was found out, let's say, that one of the students was responsible for the death of someone else. Moreover, isn't it the job of security to verify that no ammo or dangerous equipment enters the competition area? i think that's at least the responsibility of FIRST...
(I know we signed something about they not responsible for our deaths but there's a limit ><)

- 3076 is Arad "Lynx". We know that they did what they did because we have EYES. Food: We were eating our pizza in our, right? than one of their teammates (their pit was next to our's) comes to our pit, in front of our eyes, grabs a slice and takes a bite out of it and leaves it where it was. we were in complete shock. it that a way to behave? is that GP?
I'm not so sure about the cans, though, but we did see a couple of their mates drink our limited edition Fanta cans in the pit and field (the cans were delivered directly and specially for our team from our sponsors). beats me how they got so rare cans while we lost ours...
Oh, and the stickers! when i say belongings, i don't mean "my bag that just lied there", oh no, i mean they come to my friends and just stick those on their shirts, pants, name tags, cellphones - while they still hold them!!! and again, while they undoubtedly refused to that! I'm seriously appalled by some of 3076 members' behavior. I thought that FIRST raises the elite of society. If that is our elite, we all should be very worried.

[Tottanka]

Michael,
About the award, i apologized and like i said it is fully deserved. I didn't know the requirements.
FIRST cant take responsibility of every team's actions, and blaming FIRST isn't even logical in the case of the events you mentioned.
The system can't keep an eye on each and every psycho out there willing to bring in firecrackes, be logical. If you knoww hat team did it, go ahead and tell that to FIRST and i'm sure they will take care of it and that this team will not be back. If you don't know who did it, don't expect FIRST to know, it's no FBI.]

There is nothing unhonest about offering a team to join you, it is your full right as a top seeded team. I don't think you can judge those teams and go as far as saying that this is a stain on FIRST Israel. It is their team's desicion and it is just as clean and fair as any other decision out there.

About team 3076. Did you talk to them yourself about the stickers, and did they still do that? If yes, did you complain to FIRST?

[brianelite]

FIRST is hosting the event and is responsible for security. That is why robots are inspected for safety by FIRST.

These are incredibly serious issues. These issues would be an outrage at any public event - and FIRST has WAYYY higher standards then other public events.

-Explosive thrown in teams pit
-Brawl with security and teams
-Fight between teams
-Theft
-Vandalism
-Racial slurs
-Intentional Disruption of matches
-Coaches/Mentors encouraging some/all of these activities

If safety cannot be guaranteed there cannot be an event. FIRST will either have to cancel the event or employ security forces if the event will continue next year... Imagine that.. FIRST increasing security.

[Mr. Van]

Originally Posted by Karthik

The gracious and professional thing for FIRST to do is offer some sort of compensation or registration credit for all teams attending the event.

I believe Karthik is right here.

I very much hope that FIRST will extend a $4000 grant to ALL teams attending the Israel regional in 2010 to be applied to attending the 2011 Israel Regional.

FIRST should also invite ALL SIX of the Finalist/Champion teams to Atlanta in 2010. (That opportunity should not be decided on a coin toss!)

My greatest respect goes to those who worked so hard to make the event possible and as good as it could be. My sympathies to the students and mentors who worked so hard to prepare for an event that was so disappointing. I'm glad that apparently most people at the event were able to make the best of the situation.

-Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

[GaryVoshol]

I was referring to the crew that actually worked at BAE. Every other event here in the US has reported delays. NH BAE did not. You look at their match results page, and you see lots of 6, 7 and 8 minute cycles; very few over 10 minutes. No other regional has managed to accomplish that. How does the crew at BAE manage it? Those people should give their methods of success to other regionals, especially Israel this year. And yes I realize the radio systems are different. But if the crew at BAE can run almost perfectly, they can probably debug the unique situation in Israel.

I would put this into perspective, though. As bad as the situation was, the disaster does not compare to what happened last year when someone dropped dead on the sidelines. That was a true disaster.

When I first saw this post headline, I had thoughts of a terrorist attack or the building collapsing.

[MikePres]

Originally Posted by Tottanka

Michael,
FIRST cant take responsibility of every team's actions, and blaming FIRST isn't even logical in the case of the events you mentioned.
The system can't keep an eye on each and every psycho out there willing to bring in firecrackes, be logical. If you knoww hat team did it, go ahead and tell that to FIRST and i'm sure they will take care of it and that this team will not be back. If you don't know who did it, don't expect FIRST to know, it's no FBI.]

There is nothing unhonest about offering a team to join you, it is your full right as a top seeded team. I don't think you can judge those teams and go as far as saying that this is a stain on FIRST Israel. It is their team's desicion and it is just as clean and fair as any other decision out there.

About team 3076. Did you talk to them yourself about the stickers, and did they still do that? If yes, did you complain to FIRST?

I don't expect them to be FBI, just FIRST. with all respect, this issues shouldn't have happened and i hope it was the last time. I encourage the FIRST Israel staff to make all the right conclusions for next year so that we won't find ourselves in a similar thread next year.

I know, i didn't say it isn't legal or isn't fair, it's okay, but we prefer not to do stuff in that way. Maybe next year we'll understand that in the end it's just a game...

We asked them no to do it and they did. we didn't complain to FIRST but i did washed one of their representatives verbally (explaining why we won't take them to our alliance, not cursing or something). i know that not all 3076 teammates are like that and i hope that it was enough to change something there for the next season.

Originally Posted by brianelite

FIRST is hosting the event and is responsible for security. That is why robots are inspected for safety by FIRST.

These are incredibly serious issues. These issues would be an outrage at any public event - and FIRST has WAYYY higher standards then other public events.

-Explosive thrown in teams pit
-Brawl with security and teams
-Fight between teams
-Theft
-Vandalism
-Racial slurs
-Intentional Disruption of matches
-Coaches/Mentors encouraging some/all of these activities

If safety cannot be guaranteed there cannot be an event. FIRST will either have to cancel the event or employ security forces if the event will continue next year... Imagine that.. FIRST increasing security.

there is no doubt that we had a lot of problems this year but still this is a great regional to participate in. the majority of teams in israel are really good people with great mind and big hearts. a lot of teams help each other (we helped and were helped this year ) and there's no real reason to eliminate this Regional. yes, we had some problems, but all regionals have some. I'm sure FIRST Israel already started preparations for a better next season. don't forget about all the logistics involved here that complicate things... I hope all the problems are going to be discussed with US FIRST too and proper solutions will be picked.
I think that all teams should go through a united seminar to remind what is exactly GP and that Award are for achievements and not the opposite. every team should also make greater efforts to explain those to its community. I said my team in the beginning of this year: "We're not gonna do charity for Chairman's, we'll enter Chairman's only if we'll do charity and community work, and it depends on people" and that's why we didn't enter Chairman's this year. I wanted my team to be rewarded for something they do, not because they do it for the award. Maybe if our crowds understood better what is GP and FIRST all about - maybe all that happed will not happen again. It's a process, it's a birth, and we have our own growing pain.

i believe that if our community will work together, everything's gonna be all right in the end

[keehun]

Originally Posted by Karthik

You call countless communication issues, teams only being able to play three official qualifying matches, elimination rounds decided on a coin toss, food being thrown at competitors and the use of racial slurs to be a "minor hiccup"?

Ah. Wow. I didn't know there was food being thrown and a lot of negative action going on. While I meant "minor hiccup" as in FIRST's issues (not people's behavior) I guess what went down was pretty bad at the Israel Regional. Forgive the ignorance.

Originally Posted by Karthik

Gracious Professionalism is a two way street. 55 teams participated at the Israel Regional and from most descriptions, most of these teams handled the extreme adversity that was thrown at them with a lot of class. Despite the best efforts of the FIRST staff and local volunteers, the event sounds like it was a relative disaster. I'm not assigning blame here, but I'm just calling a spade a spade. The gracious and professional thing for FIRST to do is offer some sort of compensation or registration credit for all teams attending the event. Say I went to a restaurant and a water main blew, soaking myself and all the other customers. The graciously professional way for me to handle the situation would be to politely express my displeasure to the management and offer some help. The graciously professional response from the restaurant would be to refund my meal and offer me some sort of discount in the future. It's not something I would demand, but I sure would appreciate the olive branch.

You make a very good point. I will agree.

Originally Posted by Karthik

Teams spent six long and hard weeks preparing for this event. 31 teams at this event only played 3 official matches. That's six minutes and forty-five seconds of robot action. For some people, this will be the only experience of their FIRST careers. At the end of the day do you really think it's appropriate to pat them on the back and say "Sorry, there's nothing we can do. At least you learned something about dealing with adversity!".

I guess I wouldn't know what it feels like until I went through it myself. Karthik, thanks for all your words, really... I sincerely mean that.

Originally Posted by Karthik

One possible solution to reward these teams. Perhaps there could be an "unofficial, yet official" off-season event this summer, where teams would play Breakaway with all the pomp and circumstance of an official regional. To top things off, grant qualification spots to winners to attend the 2011 World Championship. We clearly can't replay the 2010 Israel Regional, but maybe something like this would provide an avenue for these teams to get some level of redemption.

That seems like a VERY VERY good idea.


Again, forgive any ignorance. I hope that FIRST won't repeat the things that went down at Israel...

[Katie_UPS]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

I would put this into perspective, though. As bad as the situation was, the disaster does not compare to what happened last year when someone dropped dead on the sidelines. That was a true disaster.

When I first saw this post headline, I had thoughts of a terrorist attack or the building collapsing.

Is there an article or a thread on this somewhere? Not to challenge your validity, but so I can learn more.

Other than that question, I don't know what to say. I can't really put to words how frustrating that must be. Not just the field issues, but what happened in the stands and pit as well. I congratulate all the teams that kept their cool, and hope they can be a positive role model to other teams.

Also, I agree with Karthik. FIRST owes you guys some sort of compensation.