2010 NASA/VCU regional!!!

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

From what I can see all rules were followed to the letter (with the possible exception of an additional <G16> penalty), which is what I would hope would happen. By doing it any other way you will get variations in refereeing, which is exactly what we don't want.

39 points in penalties is a bit excessive, but I betcha no one will make that mistake again

Well, if a team puts a ball on the rails and it somehow misses the ball counter, then it may not be there fault (i.e. if the rails were bumped and the ball fell off beforehand).

However it could also be that the human player tried to give the ball a push using the trident, and the ball fell off. That's only conjecture and I seriously doubt anyone except for the human player knows for sure.

[Ken Streeter]

Originally Posted by JesseK

To be fair, why should we not play by the rules, particularly in the 2nd scenario you're describing? In other words, how is it in FIRST's best interest to not play by the rules they set?.

I'm not suggesting that the rules be ignored. However, the 2nd scenario is, in my opinion, a question of interpretation, as I can see a valid interpretation which results in a red card being issued and I can also see a valid interpretation which results in no red card. Below is the rule in question...

Originally Posted by Rule G29, as of Rev K

Defending ROBOT Restriction - Only one opposing ALLIANCE ROBOT is allowed in the opponent’s ZONE. A ROBOT is considered in this ZONE if any part of the ROBOT is in contact with the ZONE's green carpet. Violation: PENALTY; plus a RED CARD if effort to remedy is not immediate.

I would note that I am not complaining about the 1-point penalty in this situation (where a 2nd robot illegally enters the opponents zone, but falls over into the opponents zone while crossing the bump, and then incurs a PENALTY and a RED CARD for breaking G29). However, the RED CARD is issued "if effort to remedy is not immediate." One scenario is that if the drivers of the offending tipped robot were attempting to leave the zone by using the joysticks on the driver console to spin their robot's wheels, they were indeed making an effort to remedy, but their effort was doomed since their robot had tipped over. (I have no idea if the drivers of the tipped robot were taking such action, as I was only watching on the webcast, which gives a poor impression of what is going on even in the best of circumstances.) If I were the head referee (which I'm not) and the drive team was trying to get their tipped robot back out of the red zone by operating their controls (but simply spinning their wheels on their tipped robot), I would definitely issue the team a 1-point penalty and probably not issue a red card, since the team had attempted to remedy the situation (even though they had been unable to do so since their robot tipped over.) I would note that my decision on a red card would probably be affected by other circumstances such as whether or not the tipped robot posed a significant obstacle to the other alliance, which would be highly dependent upon the location and specific circumstances of where the robot is tipped. (For example, in the bump/wall corner with no balls obstructed would be relatively benign, but right in front of the tunnel/tower on top of a couple of balls could be a major impediment to the other alliance.)

[Coredesat]

On another note, I was not at the event today but I have photos from Wednesday and Thursday on a Picasa gallery:

Wednesday: http://picasaweb.google.com/coredesa...Regional31710#

Thursday: http://picasaweb.google.com/coredesa...Regional31810#

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Ken Streeter

I'm not suggesting that the rules be ignored. However, the 2nd scenario is, in my opinion, a question of interpretation, as I can see a valid interpretation which results in a red card being issued and I can also see a valid interpretation which results in no red card. Below is the rule in question...

I would note that I am not complaining about the 1-point penalty in this situation (where a 2nd robot illegally enters the opponents zone, but falls over into the opponents zone while crossing the bump, and then incurs a PENALTY and a RED CARD for breaking G29). However, the RED CARD is issued "if effort to remedy is not immediate." One scenario is that if the drivers of the offending tipped robot were attempting to leave the zone by using the joysticks on the driver console to spin their robot's wheels, they were indeed making an effort to remedy, but their effort was doomed since their robot had tipped over. (I have no idea if the drivers of the tipped robot were taking such action, as I was only watching on the webcast, which gives a poor impression of what is going on even in the best of circumstances.) If I were the head referee (which I'm not) and the drive team was trying to get their tipped robot back out of the red zone by operating their controls (but simply spinning their wheels on their tipped robot), I would definitely issue the team a 1-point penalty and probably not issue a red card, since the team had attempted to remedy the situation (even though they had been unable to do so since their robot tipped over.) I would note that my decision on a red card would probably be affected by other circumstances such as whether or not the tipped robot posed a significant obstacle to the other alliance, which would be highly dependent upon the location and specific circumstances of where the robot is tipped. (For example, in the bump/wall corner with no balls obstructed would be relatively benign, but right in front of the tunnel/tower on top of a couple of balls could be a major impediment to the other alliance.)

Ultimately, as clarified by Q&A, even if a robot is tipped/disabled, the alliance is still in violation of <G29>. The alliance partner should make the immediate actions to remedy the situation, in that case.
However, if I were the ref (and I'm not), in the case of the red card I would still give it to the team that tipped, as they are the ones who initiated the penalty (though I would actually consider giving it to both teams).

[Bsteckler]

I was coaching for 2402 when the 39 point penalty in question occured (in fact, the human player was one of ours). Our human player had a tenancy to want to jam the balls into the trident and he says that one of them was not able to be removed easily, and it came off the rails when he pulled the trident off, and somehow made it onto the field without triggering the ball counter. He has since fixed this issue and has been our trident-er for all our matches today and done a fairly decent job.

On another note, did anybody notice the scoreboard dropping points (before they made the announcement)? We were affected by this in a subsequent match, and one of the spectators from a team on our alliance caught the event on tape. The refs also admitted to the problem and acknowledged that it would be fixed We took the issue up after the match and they said it would be rectified once the day was complete, but at the end of play they said that the recording could not be used as evidence to dispute the claim. I have heard of this happening with several other teams and I was wondering if anyone has successfully pressed the refs and judges to deal with this issue.

[Joe Matt]

I want to congratulate Connor Clarke on winning the Woodie Flowers Award today. The man has deserved this award since I was first exposed to FIRST back in 2001, and finally he's getting the recognition for the years of service, passion, and chainsawing that 384 and 1086 have been lucky to receive. He was a moderator when times were heated, a good laugh when times were sad, and a great leader when times were tough.

Congrats again Chainsaw

[Saton472]

Originally Posted by JesseK

To be fair, why should we not play by the rules, particularly in the 2nd scenario you're describing? In other words, how is it in FIRST's best interest to not play by the rules they set?

The first scenario sounds like it's unprecedented (how can you even return a ball without putting it through the cyllinder?) and thus the referee would rather error on the side of literal rather than subjective. If anything, the head ref may receive clarification tonight and simply change the score tomorrow. I would much rather a referee error on the side of literal rather than interpretive, and at least in these two cases the rules are very clear.

For the second scenario, if the bot flipped then the other bot should have left the zone.

Edit -- After some research, it would appear that the alliance in scenario 1 should be issued a <G16> of 2 penalties + Yellow Card. So perhaps if the team challenges the ruling with what the rules state, their score can be changed even without GDC intervention.

Hey guys
I was on field reset for the first two days o i will try to clarify some things. The head Ref is Lisa, and as long as iv been on reset ( 5 years now) she is very strict and i think always will be. In my opinion i think that the rules should have a little lee way in that they should be called if they were intentional. now to explain what happened with the ball return issue because it happened directly infront of me. the main issue that has been happening the whole event is that people are sticking the balls to far in to the trident thus making it hard for them to come out when they ball is put on the ball return. what happened is exactly that. $@#$@#$@# he was trying to get the ball out of the trident it got stuck in the ball return. as he was trying to get it free by hitting it up with the trident the ball litteraly launched over the sensor. I did explain this to the one of the refs and he did talk to Lisa but the decision was left to them and i wasnt there for the discussion.


also to explain the two main communication issues that caused basically all of the problems. On Thursday the main issue was with the WPA keys. what happened is at the beginning of the day when the keys were all added to the routers the program said that they took when they didnt. We quickly found the solution which was just easy, re-implant the WPA key which is what we were doing when you saw us on the field with a laptop. The problem on Friday was that some of the robots had new routers and what was happening was if the new routers got turned on after the old routers it kicked them off of the network. The problem was fixed by shutting off all bots, restarting the router and clearing all the information off of the system, and then turning the robots with new routers on first and then the other robots. it just took awhile because of the reboot. congratulations to alll teams on a GREAT REGINAL

[September]

That was a really, really long regional.

Congrats to 1676, 1086, and 1418!

And congrats to 617, 346, and 1895 for making history at the Virginia Regional by doing nine, pre-finals, elimination matches!

[Sky Captain]

Thanks for that, that semi-final match seemed like it was never going to end. I would also like to thank 617 and 1895 for being made of awesome, we never would have gone as far as we did without you guys.

[Cowmanjohn]

I am the driver for 617, the Enginerds, and running a total of 11 matches during the eliminations was really tough for us. We ran 4 during the quarterfinals, 5 during the semifinals, and 2 during the finals. Four of the semifinal matches were in a row without any breaks except a six minute time out. After the semifinals we replaced our battery and had to get right back on the field where we ran two more matches in a row. The back to back matches also took a toll on our robot. During eliminations our frame became bent and we went through three different bushings on one wheel! The metal hinge on our kicker also got torn. However, we did have a great time and I would like to thank our alliance partners 346 and 1895. Without them we never would have gotten this far. I would also like to thank all of our opponents for a wonderful challenge. And a special thanks to all the teams that loaned us batteries or offered to: 346, 384, 435, 540, and 3079.

[Bsteckler]

Yes, I was awestruck by the quality of play in the finals and semi-finals. 2402 mostlikely would have been up there with you all but we got another 44 point penalty for pretty much the same reason as our 39 point one before. You can imagine what our human player had to hear after that. All the teams did very well at VCU today, regardless of what place they took, I know that non-optimal performance was the case for many teams (us included) but I am glad that everyone was able to overcome this and play to the best of there abilities.

[Nigel]

thanks to all the teams that loaned us batteries and tools n such, very useful as this was our rookie year and we didn't have stuff we apparently should have special thanks to 1255 DOTM for their wonderful mentorship this season helping us get off the ground and for their wonderful help in the pit again with tools, batteries, and knowledge when we got WAY farther than we figured we would... congrats to all the teams who made it to Atlanta this year, great job!

on a side note, does anyone have a picture of us after we climbed kilroy? I know there were several pictures taken and i was hoping to find one... oh thanks to kilroy for having such a sweet bot for us to climb

[Lee Reid 3136]

I agree with and would like to second everything he just said ^

Also my sister has a picture of us on the platform. The problem being that it is somewhere in the other 400 pictures she took.

[Nigel]

does she? awesome. oh and your sig kinda cuts off =P

[kjohnson]

Originally Posted by Nigel

on a side note, does anyone have a picture of us after we climbed kilroy? I know there were several pictures taken and i was hoping to find one... oh thanks to kilroy for having such a sweet bot for us to climb

Pictures attached. Great elevation, and quite unexpected.