Defense?

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Andy L

I went to my first regional for this year this weekend and I was very surprised at how easy it was to defend robots, but yet how few teams did it. I know in qualifications it's not good to defend to much, I don't want this thread to turn into an argument about that.

We had a few matches where we were 2v1 or even 3v1 with us being the 1, and we held our own while our team mates scored. The other big surprising thing was the teams that have broken/failing kickers that don't attempt to defend or show off any other aspects of their robots. Our strategy Thursday was offense, our strategy Friday and Saturday was defense, it put us at 20th in the rankings, but we caught the eyes of most of the top 10 teams at SVR I think.

Has anyone else noticed this? It just seems like teams are focusing on qualification points instead of their strong points

If you win a match 2 to 1, it is worse than losing 7 to 2.

Despite that, I somewhat agree. Defense isn't too hard to do with a good drive team, good drive base, and good robot. Defense wins Championships. Many teams also don't really have a knack for solid defense, while it seems yours does. Take advantage of that! Defense DOES have a place in quals, so play smart, use small amounts of effective defense, and you'll do well.

Here is one's daily reminder that pushing and defense are not synonymous.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

If you win a match 2 to 1, it is worse than losing 7 to 2.

Only in seeding points.

[cziggy343]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

If you win a match 2 to 1, it is worse than losing 7 to 2.

actually, after update 16, if you win a match 2 to 1, you get 8 seeding points... lose 7 to 2, you get 7.

but, there def is a place for defense in this game. a lock down defender in elims is crucial. we built our robot specificallly to play defense in elims. in quals, we do our best to play offense, even though we realize its not our "strong point"

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by cziggy343

actually, after update 16, if you win a match 2 to 1, you get 8 seeding points... lose 7 to 2, you get 7.

but, there def is a place for defense in this game. a lock down defender in elims is crucial. we built our robot specificallly to play defense in elims. in quals, we do our best to play offense, even though we realize its not our "strong point"

make it 8 to 2 then, i was just trying to come up with random numbers

[IKE]

At the Michigan district events, it seems like Friday is for scorinf points and seeding. If you are not in striking distance of the top 8, Saturday AM has been showcasing talents (like defense).

Defense was very important to the winners of Kettering. It sounds like defense was a huge factor of the champions at west michigan.

[Alex Dinsmoor]

Originally Posted by IKE

At the Michigan district events, it seems like Friday is for scorinf points and seeding. If you are not in striking distance of the top 8, Saturday AM has been showcasing talents (like defense).

Defense was very important to the winners of Kettering. It sounds like defense was a huge factor of the champions at west michigan.

I completely agree with that!

Scouting on Saturday, it was obvious that teams were trying to show off their specialties so they could look good for picking. What I learned though, is that the best teams do what they do best for the entire competition. Take 1023 for example; they were playing amazing defense all weekend, and look at how that turned out

At Detroit, the effectiveness of defense in the elims was variable. There were teams who used defense to their advantage to help shut down other robots, but there were also the matches where teams would score the heck out of their goals and produce scores such as 13-13 or even 14-13.

It all depends on the alliance and who they are playing against. What we learned in the finals matches is that if someone is going up to hang before the finale to say redirect balls (51 ) It would be best to play defense against them hanging rather than just trying to block goals up close.

[BX HANNAH]

Originally Posted by Alex Dinsmoor

I completely agree with that!

Scouting on Saturday, it was obvious that teams were trying to show off their specialties so they could look good for picking. What I learned though, is that the best teams do what they do best for the entire competition. Take 1023 for example; they were playing amazing defense all weekend, and look at how that turned out

At Detroit, the effectiveness of defense in the elims was variable. There were teams who used defense to their advantage to help shut down other robots, but there were also the matches where teams would score the heck out of their goals and produce scores such as 13-13 or even 14-13.

It all depends on the alliance and who they are playing against. What we learned in the finals matches is that if someone is going up to hang before the finale to say redirect balls (51 ) It would be best to play defense against them hanging rather than just trying to block goals up close.

Thank you very much!

[BJC]

I think that when it comes to defense this year teams don't want to play it because they feel their ability would be better used elsewhere.

As a result I have yet to see a robot who consistantly plays good defense in the far zone AND can clear balls to the other side of the field.

It seems that for the most part once a ball enters either the near or far zone it stays there until it is scored.

My suggested stratigy is to have the "best" robot in the far zone, the second "best" in the middle and the third in the home zone . Then in teleop the "best" robot clears all the balls out of the far zone across the field into their home zone (their goal here would not be to score but to do this as fast as possible). Meanwhile, the third robot would join the second "best" in the middle in an effort to control the flow of balls in the middle (the third pick does not have help kick balls but can instead harass the middle oppenent robot this way that great third pick defender robot on the other alliance doesn't have anyone to guard and is effectivly useless). After all the balls in the far zone have been kicked down and the middle has been secured the "best" robot will join the other two in the middle to further assist in kicking balls into the home zone (again just as fast as possible, not to score) Then with a minute to forty seconds left the "best" and second "best" robots will go into their home zone and push balls in by the bucketload (instead of one at a time over the course of the match). The third robot would stay in the middle and continue to harrass the opposition. Finally, any robot who could would hang for bonus points.

This would throw teams off balance because generally the best teams play offencivly in the close or middle zones.
My 2 cents

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by BJC

I think that when it comes to defense this year teams don't want to play it because they feel their ability would be better used elsewhere.

As a result I have yet to see a robot who consistantly plays good defense in the far zone AND can clear balls to the other side of the field.

Watch 1625 in Kansas City.

[BJC]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Watch 1625 in Kansas City.

Ya, I'm sure that there are robots that do it, its just that I have yet to see them.

Anyways, I'm sure that 1625's got the right idea.

However, I would like to see more teams do this.

Also, this would be really when playing against a 469 or 51 type robot.
(we're playing 469 this weekend; we'll probably end up doing something very similar to this.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Watch 1625 in Kansas City.

111 has also played mostly in the 3rd zone for a significant amount of their elimination matches in both Wisconsin and Midwest. I think it is worth noting that in 3 regionals 1625 and 111 have done this, they have yet to win and have 1 finalist. (obviously that is not a knock on them, just an observation of the strategy). Has their been a top robot play in the 3rd zone most of the time and win?

I think the key is flexibility. If you have robots that can only play in one zone or do the same strategy, you will be predictable and probably beaten.

[NOV8R]

The winning strategy in the regional finals I've seen have bee based on the saying " the best defense is an aggressive ofense". During autonomous if an alliance can get balls downfield and score a few in the process, the far end robot leaves the zone during the start of teleoperated leaving no defender in that zone. Once in the mid-field the best herder/near zone kicker moves to the near zone ganging up on the lone defender. The mid-fielder keeps shooting and scoring balls as well. This strategy seems hard to defend against.

[kjolana1124]

Originally Posted by NOV8R

The winning strategy in the regional finals I've seen have bee based on the saying " the best defense is an aggressive ofense". During autonomous if an alliance can get balls downfield and score a few in the process, the far end robot leaves the zone during the start of teleoperated leaving no defender in that zone. Once in the mid-field the best herder/near zone kicker moves to the near zone ganging up on the lone defender. The mid-fielder keeps shooting and scoring balls as well. This strategy seems hard to defend against.

While I agree with you, I can't help but feel like it's relying a bit too much on autonomous. Having a defender in the close zone at least makes it harder to score, even if they do allow balls though. Robots who are in the mid-field will have to have to be able to boast the ability to transport balls to their scoring zone quickly and effectively in order to keep the edge on their side. Not only that, but they also have to keep balls away from the other mid player. Having a defender bot takes a way a little bit of that pressure of the mid-fielder; yes they have to get balls over the bump, but at least this way it's a little harder for the other to score.

[BJC]

Originally Posted by NOV8R

The winning strategy in the regional finals I've seen have bee based on the saying " the best defense is an aggressive ofense". During autonomous if an alliance can get balls downfield and score a few in the process, the far end robot leaves the zone during the start of teleoperated leaving no defender in that zone. Once in the mid-field the best herder/near zone kicker moves to the near zone ganging up on the lone defender. The mid-fielder keeps shooting and scoring balls as well. This strategy seems hard to defend against.

I have noticed this too. However, I have also noticed that because of the lack of this stratigy balls that go into the near or far zone rarly come out execpt through the ball return (scoring). Therefore, a stratigy that involves being able to clear balls from the far zone has some merit.

Have you noticed how many balls are actully down there after the auto. In elims I'd say around 4ish. If you even just clear that 4 before going to the middle thats 4 balls your opponent doesn't have that they normally would (and 4 balls you do now have ).

There is definatly something to this idea although I don't think you can win by just keeping the "best" robot on your alliance down there all match.

[NOV8R]

BJC...I agree with you. If balls are not kicked out of the far zone in auto you'd better hang around briefly in tele to do it. Your opposition can't score balls they don't have. The mid-field is the key to the game in teleoperated. Even if you don't have a looper you need to have a mid-field robot that can aquire and kick them quickly when they come off the rail. An ample supply of balls and two robots in the near zone overwhelms the lone defender.