Team 217 - Thunderchickens

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by babycakes

This team is way overated. It easy to make a good robot when ALL your parts are machined in Texas and shipped back and pop riveted together. The students learn alot about problem solving there. And they expect all the awards they get and arent even excited about winning a district. The driver on the team when asked if he was excited at the cass tech district said " not really, i know we are going to win it". This team really deserves everything they get huh?

I love how whenever everyone decides to slag a team in this fashion, they choose to do it with an anonymous account. Why not put your name behind your voice?

[fuzzy1718]

because they know how mob mentality is. I'm not taking either side of this debate, it is napalm to one and all, but the anonymous account thing I will comment on. Anyone who says anything in the FIRST community that isn't "politically correct" gets slammed, both individually and their team. It is a smart thing to do posting anonymously, their team doesn't get harmed and neither do they. And for those who think it is dishonorable and a sneaky stab in the back, what would you do? Put the reputation of your team on the line or post anonymously? Those who will retort back to my post with the "if you don't have something nice to say, then don't say it" remark: if this thread really burned your shorts would you sit back and let it go on?

To everyone on both sides of the issue, I would like to remind you this is a public forum on the internet. Just because you personally don't like what someone has to say doesn't mean you should start a flame war, or run their personal and/or team's reputation through the mud. With that being said, can a moderator please close this thread before it turns really nasty?

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by fuzzy1718

because they know how mob mentality is. I'm not taking either side of this debate, it is napalm to one and all, but the anonymous account thing I will comment on. Anyone who says anything in the FIRST community that isn't "politically correct" gets slammed, both individually and their team.

While I can see what you're saying, kinda, to an extent, in other contexts only... I think there's a difference between "political incorrectness" and saying a team full of hard working students and mentors that's a model for teams around the world to emulate doesn't deserve their trophies or their success because they have some parts machined in another state. Generally, drawing the line at insulting and attacking dozens of individuals publicly and anonymously is not a bad place for said line...

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by fuzzy1718

because they know how mob mentality is. I'm not taking either side of this debate, it is napalm to one and all, but the anonymous account thing I will comment on. Anyone who says anything in the FIRST community that isn't "politically correct" gets slammed, both individually and their team. It is a smart thing to do posting anonymously, their team doesn't get harmed and neither do they. And for those who think it is dishonorable and a sneaky stab in the back, what would you do? Put the reputation of your team on the line or post anonymously? Those who will retort back to my post with the "if you don't have something nice to say, then don't say it" remark: if this thread really burned your shorts would you sit back and let it go on?

To everyone on both sides of the issue, I would like to remind you this is a public forum on the internet. Just because you personally don't like what someone has to say doesn't mean you should start a flame war, or run their personal and/or team's reputation through the mud. With that being said, can a moderator please close this thread before it turns really nasty?

Except it's against the rules that you agree to when you post on this forum.

[HashemReza]

One's validity is dictated by how much they wager with their opinion, and the strength of that opinion. This person is wagering nothing by saying this, and making a weak point, making it quite easy to highlight.

As JVN stated in his brainstorming video, "If you don't have evidence, your opinion is useless to me." Or, something to that effect. This is true here, where the only evidence is a seemingly jealous statement and a protective mask.

[Arefin Bari]

The comment against Thunderchickens makes me sick to the stomach. Their team is still one of the reasons why I am still involved with FIRST no matter how much my parents or my gf are against it just because it takes so much out of me.

Thank you Team 217 for all your inspiration.

[Eric O]

Originally Posted by Arefin Bari

The comment against Thunderchickens makes me sick to the stomach. Their team is still one of the reasons why I am still involved with FIRST no matter how much my parents or my gf are against it just because it takes so much out of me.

They are even breaking up families and relationships! These Thunderchickens sound pretty awful!

-Anonymous

PS: I look at the dominant teams in this program and they have two things, intelligence and dedication. Both of them together produce the teams/robots that they do. Without the same level of both it makes it harder and harder to compete. The good news, it’s possible to get there! In fact, people from many of these teams tell you how to do it. They give presentations on how they do it at the Championship (and other venues). Don't get mad, learn, and get even.

[thefro526]

I have a friend on 217 and she pointed me towards this thread and was very offended.

It seems that year after year someone comes out and bashes some well known and successful team for not building their own robot, assembling a robot from parts, blah blah blah. What's people seem to forget though, is that when you bash a team on a Public Forum like this, members of the team can see it. While some stand up and will correct you, many just sit back and get hurt because they feel too biased to counter argue.

So to the Anonymous poster who came out and bashed 217, get to know people on the team and then come back on here and make claims about robots being built however - and when you come back, please use a real name.

Also, I'd suggest that any of the Mentors or Team Leaders out there try to talk to their students about good teams and good robots and try to get rid of the animosity that students seem to have towards these elite team. At one point in time (2006) I would go to competitions as an impressionable Freshman and see good robots with my older teammates. They would instantly say, "You know who built that robot, not the kids" and things of the sort. As I got older, and learned about what building robots takes (I was on the other side of those comments once or twice) I grew out of that school of thought. Now I try to make sure that no student on 816 has that mindset. Sometimes, it seems that students (especially those on student run teams) seem to forget that students their own age can build exceptional robots.

[JackG]

I don't think anybody (except maybe thefro526) really understood why people like babycakes had a bone to pick with the Chickens. It's easy to dismiss him as a jealous, lazy brat, but I bet there's more to it than that. Imagine, you're a 16 year old student on your school's team. You and your team put in hours after school, and you end up with a so-so robot relative to the other teams. Then you look over at the guys in green who win multiple regionals a year and resentment starts to build. "Hey, isn't this a fair competition? Me and my friend designed our robot, but they had professional engineers design theirs! My shaky hands and I milled our parts out, while lasers cut our theirs!" It's as if your sandlot team showed up to play and faced off with the New York Yankees. You'd feel at least a little betrayed by what you thought was a balanced playing field.

Like many of you have pointed out, there's nothing in the rules that says the students have to do the work. There's nothing that says everybody will have the same resources. But many students on lesser teams don't realize that. Without understanding those facts, the whole system seems to be a sham competition. Those who have been around for a while realize that unless they're on a dynasty team, they probably won't have much chance of playing on Einstein. But let’s face it, it took us all some time before we realized that. Some people have not reached that realization, and we need to gently help them reach it.

I know people who are much less interested in the MLB (relative to other sports) because of the lack of salary caps. Some people just don’t like the idea that not everybody starts from the same footing, and find the game much less fun for that reason. While in FIRST it makes complete sense to leave the game without a salary/resource cap, so to speak, not everyone will like the resulting system. One way of looking at the original post was that babycakes was simply one of those people and was pointing out his/her reasons. (Disclaimer: the first post, however, was highly undiplomatic and came off as a crude attack. babycakes did deserve to be flamed for that. Not for the message, but for the tone should the blame have come. Also, babycakes' second post indicated that he/she didn't understand FIRST very well, and that post was also worthy of criticism.)



While I’m on a roll defending unpopular viewpoints, I’ll say that babycakes made the right call by posting anonymously. He/she was arguing a point, and the point’s validity did not depend on the person making it. If you can refute the point, then do so. But knowing the person’s identity does not further the discussion of that point. It simply gives you ammo to launch tangent discussions. In other words, posting anonymously dodges ad hominem arguments (although, laughably, many respected members of this community found ways to make these ad-hominem attacks regardless.) Besides, babycakes chose to post anonymously because he/she anticipated that this reaction would occur. Whatever fallout resulting from the anonymity is better than newfound ill-will generated by attaching a team number to a controversial post.

So, ChiefDelphi, I’m defending anonymity outright. Let’s remember how many of the greatest writers have used pseudonyms for their work at some point. Why? Because good points do not need a name behind them to be good points, and an argument is an argument is an argument whether it springs from the keyboard of Justice Roberts or the lowliest student. Recall the line from V for Vendetta “Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy, and ideas are bulletproof.”

EDIT: Grammar, punctuation, etc.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by JackG

While I’m on a roll defending unpopular viewpoints, I’ll say that babycakes made the right call by posting anonymously. He/she was arguing a point, and the point’s validity did not depend on the person making it. If you can refute the point, then do so. But knowing the person’s identity does not further the discussion of that point. It simply gives you ammo to launch tangent discussions

There's a stark difference between arguing a point ("maybe students should have to fabricate robots" or something like that) and calling a large body of individuals unenthusiastic slackers who don't deserve to win trophies because they sent CAD files to Texas. FAHA has been used to allow people to argue viewpoints anonymously before, if people want an avenue to do so. But I don't see "arguing a point" as a catch all safety net for lobbing pot shots at teams.

What if that was your team? What if I made an anonymous account and called you an ungracious jerk who should have to give back all the trophies you've ever won? I'm sure you'd be happy then.

Thanks for not making your post anonymously

[Don Wright]

I can't express my feelings as well as those before me.

I can just say that for people to have these feelings towards 217 is sad. They are an incredible group of students, mentors, parents, teachers and their involvement makes FIRST better in all ways. I'm amazed when I look around at a Michigan event like Cass Tech and see TC Green in almost every pit it seems helping teams out.

It's sad that you have that opinion because you obviously don't know them...but it's your loss...

[Nathan Streeter]

I'd like to break this post down into a couple major points, so it's clear that I have several distinct ideas.

1. Prejudicial Bashing is Unacceptable
I find all prejudicial bashing absolutely unacceptable. To have someone who has probably never even really seen into 217's build season accuse them as an outsider is ridiculous. If there is any validity to the "knew we were going to win" comment, which I really doubt there is any of, then that would be upsetting. The most that should be done with some sort of accusation would be a respectful PM to Paul Copioli or one of the lead mentors of 217. Babycakes definitely took the wrong stance here.

2. Students Wrestling Through the Design Process is Great
I haven't seen a design project or competition anything like FIRST. For high school students to actually have the opportunity to take on the "FIRST Challenge" every year is great. Students gain more as their involvement increases, from the game-breakdown to the picklist, from the drawing board to the pit crew, from the CAD window to the crate. I think the most unique opportunity in FIRST is the CAD window, though... There is no design project for high schoolers as big as this, that I have seen. I am truly proud, impressed (and maybe a little jealous...) of the 217 students who design such a complex robot year after year. The fact that these students consistently design so well is an inspiration to me and my team. That said, I'm impressed with all of the student designers in FIRST, regardless of how well their robot performs.

3. 217 is Epic
Just to make sure everyone out there knows how much I admire 217... If there's any team I'm most impressed by, it's theirs. Ever since I began to see teams beyond our local regional, 217's has most impressed me! Sorry to the runners-up... ;-)

4. The Shop is Fun
The time that students spend in the shop throughout the season is often what draws students onto our team. The young teenagers love to be able to use the drill, the pop-riveter, everyone has their favorite tool... The feeling doesn't wear off, though. I joined our team (1519) in 8th grade and on my first day I was able to use the drill press and the riveter. I loved it from the beginning. Those first two years I spent all my time in the shop - I got pretty good at constantly "Macgyvering" a parts. For those that don't know, our team has limited resources... Our well-loved, low-quality Drill Press is as high-tech as we have, and the table doesn't have a X, Y, or Z adjustments! Although I'm in my 5th year and I do more CADing than anything else... I still love working in the shop. Everyone loves to build - everyone I've met, at least!

5. The Shop is Educational
To be honest, I've been disappointed with the comments that seem to demean the shopwork that students do. There is alot to learn in the shop. If I had to pick which is better for students' future, fabrication or design, I'd agree that design is more important; however, to say that sending the designs out to a sponsor for production is essentially no loss is, in my mind, false. Students learn in the shop, although maybe even more in our shop than in one with a CNC mill and metal break or a manual mill and lathe. As I said, we often have to "Macgyver" a way to do everything, which would be entirely unnecessary if we were in a more high-quality shop. Measuring and marking become a precise art and an opportunity to gain an attention to detail. Easing the miter saw or drill press through material teaches you a "mechanics' feel" for how machinery behaves. Tapping and tightening bolts to an appropriate torque are valuable also. I view the shop as the classroom for students that will always be good at repairs in the future. Perhaps I mis-read some of the comments that seemed to diminish the role of the shop...

6. Anonymous Posting...
Well, I don't think anonymous posting is cowardly... I think the fact that your name and team # go along with the post is a valuable "conscience" for what you should be posting. If you have to say "hmm, this would ruin my team's name..." then it's probably just an inappropriate thing to say! So, I would essentially say that anonymous posting isn't inherently cowardly and that there should never (or almost never?) be a reason to need to post anonymously.

Those are my 2 cents... I'd like to hear your response to these thoughts.

[Tom Line]

I can certainly understand where the jealousy comes from regarding 217, 148, etc. The resources (monetarily and sponsorship wise) they have access to are the envy of many small companies, much less a FIRST robotics team. It can be very easy to get disheartened when you have to compete against those teams year in and year out, see their incredible robots, and (usually) lose to them.

That's where it comes back around to the mentors to remind you: you aren't team 217, you aren't team 148. You are your own team and you need to use your own yardstick to measure with.

I'll admit that we go into every competition eyeing those folks, knowing that they'll probably be the ones to beat. That highlights even more just how good they really are, because I bet almost every other team is looking at them the same way.

Improve yourself. Try not to tear others down.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by fuzzy1718

because they know how mob mentality is. I'm not taking either side of this debate, it is napalm to one and all, but the anonymous account thing I will comment on. Anyone who says anything in the FIRST community that isn't "politically correct" gets slammed, both individually and their team. It is a smart thing to do posting anonymously, their team doesn't get harmed and neither do they. And for those who think it is dishonorable and a sneaky stab in the back, what would you do? Put the reputation of your team on the line or post anonymously? Those who will retort back to my post with the "if you don't have something nice to say, then don't say it" remark: if this thread really burned your shorts would you sit back and let it go on?

It is absolutely dishonourable. If you can't stand behind what you have to say, why bother saying it? I'm well aware that anything I say on these forums is a reflection both upon myself and my team. If I'm not willing to put that reputation on the line, then I'll keep my mouth shut. (Keep in mind I've had my share of controversial moments on these forums and said some pretty blunt things, ask someone on Team 48 if you don't believe me.) It's much easier to criticize someone when shielded by a shroud of anonymity. It's the equivalent of putting a mask on and running up to a kid in school and saying "you're ugly". It's juvenile and ridiculous.

/Edit

Also, posting anonymously is completely unproductive. No one takes these anonymous posts seriously. If the original poster actually had concerns with how 217 was being run, there are about 1000 other constructive ways to address the issue. Perhaps going up to Mike Copioli and saying "Hey Mike, I think your team has some problems, I was hoping we could discuss them". By hurling anonymous insults on an internet forum, the post has accomplished absolutely nothing. (Aside from wasting may time...)

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Karthik

It is absolutely dishonourable. If you can't stand behind what you have to say, why bother saying it? I'm well aware that anything I say on these forums is a reflection both upon myself and my team. If I'm not willing to put that reputation on the line, then I'll keep my mouth shut. (Keep in mind I've had my share of controversial moments on these forums and said some pretty blunt things, ask someone on Team 48 if you don't believe me.) It's much easier to criticize someone when shielded by a shroud of anonymity. It's the equivalent of putting a mask on and running up to a kid in school and saying "you're ugly". It's juvenile and ridiculous.

/Edit

Also, posting anonymously is completely unproductive. No one takes these anonymous posts seriously. If the original poster actually had concerns with how 217 was being run, there are about 1000 other constructive ways to address the issue. Perhaps going up to Mike Copioli and saying "Hey Mike, I think your team has some problems, I was hoping we could discuss them". By hurling anonymous insults on an internet forum, the post has accomplished absolutely nothing. (Aside from wasting may time...)

/Edit #2 (Since I've already wasted my time)

The Thunderchickens are one of the best run teams in all of FIRST. They arguably have one of the most intelligent student groups of any team in FIRST. (The "ringers" as we've dubbed them) Each year they astonish me with what they accomplish and have probably done more to inspire my methods of mentoring on 1114 than any other team in FIRST. So yeah.