Team 217 - Thunderchickens

[JackG]

I don't think anybody (except maybe thefro526) really understood why people like babycakes had a bone to pick with the Chickens. It's easy to dismiss him as a jealous, lazy brat, but I bet there's more to it than that. Imagine, you're a 16 year old student on your school's team. You and your team put in hours after school, and you end up with a so-so robot relative to the other teams. Then you look over at the guys in green who win multiple regionals a year and resentment starts to build. "Hey, isn't this a fair competition? Me and my friend designed our robot, but they had professional engineers design theirs! My shaky hands and I milled our parts out, while lasers cut our theirs!" It's as if your sandlot team showed up to play and faced off with the New York Yankees. You'd feel at least a little betrayed by what you thought was a balanced playing field.

Like many of you have pointed out, there's nothing in the rules that says the students have to do the work. There's nothing that says everybody will have the same resources. But many students on lesser teams don't realize that. Without understanding those facts, the whole system seems to be a sham competition. Those who have been around for a while realize that unless they're on a dynasty team, they probably won't have much chance of playing on Einstein. But let’s face it, it took us all some time before we realized that. Some people have not reached that realization, and we need to gently help them reach it.

I know people who are much less interested in the MLB (relative to other sports) because of the lack of salary caps. Some people just don’t like the idea that not everybody starts from the same footing, and find the game much less fun for that reason. While in FIRST it makes complete sense to leave the game without a salary/resource cap, so to speak, not everyone will like the resulting system. One way of looking at the original post was that babycakes was simply one of those people and was pointing out his/her reasons. (Disclaimer: the first post, however, was highly undiplomatic and came off as a crude attack. babycakes did deserve to be flamed for that. Not for the message, but for the tone should the blame have come. Also, babycakes' second post indicated that he/she didn't understand FIRST very well, and that post was also worthy of criticism.)



While I’m on a roll defending unpopular viewpoints, I’ll say that babycakes made the right call by posting anonymously. He/she was arguing a point, and the point’s validity did not depend on the person making it. If you can refute the point, then do so. But knowing the person’s identity does not further the discussion of that point. It simply gives you ammo to launch tangent discussions. In other words, posting anonymously dodges ad hominem arguments (although, laughably, many respected members of this community found ways to make these ad-hominem attacks regardless.) Besides, babycakes chose to post anonymously because he/she anticipated that this reaction would occur. Whatever fallout resulting from the anonymity is better than newfound ill-will generated by attaching a team number to a controversial post.

So, ChiefDelphi, I’m defending anonymity outright. Let’s remember how many of the greatest writers have used pseudonyms for their work at some point. Why? Because good points do not need a name behind them to be good points, and an argument is an argument is an argument whether it springs from the keyboard of Justice Roberts or the lowliest student. Recall the line from V for Vendetta “Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy, and ideas are bulletproof.”

EDIT: Grammar, punctuation, etc.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by JackG

While I’m on a roll defending unpopular viewpoints, I’ll say that babycakes made the right call by posting anonymously. He/she was arguing a point, and the point’s validity did not depend on the person making it. If you can refute the point, then do so. But knowing the person’s identity does not further the discussion of that point. It simply gives you ammo to launch tangent discussions

There's a stark difference between arguing a point ("maybe students should have to fabricate robots" or something like that) and calling a large body of individuals unenthusiastic slackers who don't deserve to win trophies because they sent CAD files to Texas. FAHA has been used to allow people to argue viewpoints anonymously before, if people want an avenue to do so. But I don't see "arguing a point" as a catch all safety net for lobbing pot shots at teams.

What if that was your team? What if I made an anonymous account and called you an ungracious jerk who should have to give back all the trophies you've ever won? I'm sure you'd be happy then.

Thanks for not making your post anonymously

[Don Wright]

I can't express my feelings as well as those before me.

I can just say that for people to have these feelings towards 217 is sad. They are an incredible group of students, mentors, parents, teachers and their involvement makes FIRST better in all ways. I'm amazed when I look around at a Michigan event like Cass Tech and see TC Green in almost every pit it seems helping teams out.

It's sad that you have that opinion because you obviously don't know them...but it's your loss...

[Nathan Streeter]

I'd like to break this post down into a couple major points, so it's clear that I have several distinct ideas.

1. Prejudicial Bashing is Unacceptable
I find all prejudicial bashing absolutely unacceptable. To have someone who has probably never even really seen into 217's build season accuse them as an outsider is ridiculous. If there is any validity to the "knew we were going to win" comment, which I really doubt there is any of, then that would be upsetting. The most that should be done with some sort of accusation would be a respectful PM to Paul Copioli or one of the lead mentors of 217. Babycakes definitely took the wrong stance here.

2. Students Wrestling Through the Design Process is Great
I haven't seen a design project or competition anything like FIRST. For high school students to actually have the opportunity to take on the "FIRST Challenge" every year is great. Students gain more as their involvement increases, from the game-breakdown to the picklist, from the drawing board to the pit crew, from the CAD window to the crate. I think the most unique opportunity in FIRST is the CAD window, though... There is no design project for high schoolers as big as this, that I have seen. I am truly proud, impressed (and maybe a little jealous...) of the 217 students who design such a complex robot year after year. The fact that these students consistently design so well is an inspiration to me and my team. That said, I'm impressed with all of the student designers in FIRST, regardless of how well their robot performs.

3. 217 is Epic
Just to make sure everyone out there knows how much I admire 217... If there's any team I'm most impressed by, it's theirs. Ever since I began to see teams beyond our local regional, 217's has most impressed me! Sorry to the runners-up... ;-)

4. The Shop is Fun
The time that students spend in the shop throughout the season is often what draws students onto our team. The young teenagers love to be able to use the drill, the pop-riveter, everyone has their favorite tool... The feeling doesn't wear off, though. I joined our team (1519) in 8th grade and on my first day I was able to use the drill press and the riveter. I loved it from the beginning. Those first two years I spent all my time in the shop - I got pretty good at constantly "Macgyvering" a parts. For those that don't know, our team has limited resources... Our well-loved, low-quality Drill Press is as high-tech as we have, and the table doesn't have a X, Y, or Z adjustments! Although I'm in my 5th year and I do more CADing than anything else... I still love working in the shop. Everyone loves to build - everyone I've met, at least!

5. The Shop is Educational
To be honest, I've been disappointed with the comments that seem to demean the shopwork that students do. There is alot to learn in the shop. If I had to pick which is better for students' future, fabrication or design, I'd agree that design is more important; however, to say that sending the designs out to a sponsor for production is essentially no loss is, in my mind, false. Students learn in the shop, although maybe even more in our shop than in one with a CNC mill and metal break or a manual mill and lathe. As I said, we often have to "Macgyver" a way to do everything, which would be entirely unnecessary if we were in a more high-quality shop. Measuring and marking become a precise art and an opportunity to gain an attention to detail. Easing the miter saw or drill press through material teaches you a "mechanics' feel" for how machinery behaves. Tapping and tightening bolts to an appropriate torque are valuable also. I view the shop as the classroom for students that will always be good at repairs in the future. Perhaps I mis-read some of the comments that seemed to diminish the role of the shop...

6. Anonymous Posting...
Well, I don't think anonymous posting is cowardly... I think the fact that your name and team # go along with the post is a valuable "conscience" for what you should be posting. If you have to say "hmm, this would ruin my team's name..." then it's probably just an inappropriate thing to say! So, I would essentially say that anonymous posting isn't inherently cowardly and that there should never (or almost never?) be a reason to need to post anonymously.

Those are my 2 cents... I'd like to hear your response to these thoughts.

[tim-tim]

I have only had the honor of being at the same competition as the ThunderChickens once, Nationals in 2006. They were in the pit dirctly behind us through the curtain. I know we used them as a resource the entire weekend, and they never once hesitated to help.

They are a very well organized and run team from mentors and parents all the way to the students. I was never under the impression that they knew they were better than everybody else. All they did was help others. As someone said earlier, you look in the pits and all you see is that TC Green. That is who they are!

Yes they may have the luxury of not having to hand cut everything, but what is wrong with that? This gives something for other teams (like mine) to shoot for. It gives us motivation to go out and find that sponsor that is willing to produce our parts so we can have a "better" robot. I am using the term "better" loosely because the robot is only as good as the designers made it. So give them credit, they have good (very good) designs year in and year out. That is what we should be jealous about, the ability to analyze the game and figure out the "best" design. That is really the special skill. I don't care if you had all the money and all the material resources, that does not make up for an efficient and effective top caliber robot on a yearly basis.

To end, I would like to thank the ThunderChickens for all of their effort they give to teams year in and year out, and setting such high standards for other teams to shoot for!

-Tim