Team 217 - Thunderchickens

[Don Wright]

I can't express my feelings as well as those before me.

I can just say that for people to have these feelings towards 217 is sad. They are an incredible group of students, mentors, parents, teachers and their involvement makes FIRST better in all ways. I'm amazed when I look around at a Michigan event like Cass Tech and see TC Green in almost every pit it seems helping teams out.

It's sad that you have that opinion because you obviously don't know them...but it's your loss...

[Jack Jones]

It has been said that ‘imitation is the sincerest form of flattery,’ but having an anonymous stalker has to beat being copied by a long shot.

[Nathan Streeter]

I'd like to break this post down into a couple major points, so it's clear that I have several distinct ideas.

1. Prejudicial Bashing is Unacceptable
I find all prejudicial bashing absolutely unacceptable. To have someone who has probably never even really seen into 217's build season accuse them as an outsider is ridiculous. If there is any validity to the "knew we were going to win" comment, which I really doubt there is any of, then that would be upsetting. The most that should be done with some sort of accusation would be a respectful PM to Paul Copioli or one of the lead mentors of 217. Babycakes definitely took the wrong stance here.

2. Students Wrestling Through the Design Process is Great
I haven't seen a design project or competition anything like FIRST. For high school students to actually have the opportunity to take on the "FIRST Challenge" every year is great. Students gain more as their involvement increases, from the game-breakdown to the picklist, from the drawing board to the pit crew, from the CAD window to the crate. I think the most unique opportunity in FIRST is the CAD window, though... There is no design project for high schoolers as big as this, that I have seen. I am truly proud, impressed (and maybe a little jealous...) of the 217 students who design such a complex robot year after year. The fact that these students consistently design so well is an inspiration to me and my team. That said, I'm impressed with all of the student designers in FIRST, regardless of how well their robot performs.

3. 217 is Epic
Just to make sure everyone out there knows how much I admire 217... If there's any team I'm most impressed by, it's theirs. Ever since I began to see teams beyond our local regional, 217's has most impressed me! Sorry to the runners-up... ;-)

4. The Shop is Fun
The time that students spend in the shop throughout the season is often what draws students onto our team. The young teenagers love to be able to use the drill, the pop-riveter, everyone has their favorite tool... The feeling doesn't wear off, though. I joined our team (1519) in 8th grade and on my first day I was able to use the drill press and the riveter. I loved it from the beginning. Those first two years I spent all my time in the shop - I got pretty good at constantly "Macgyvering" a parts. For those that don't know, our team has limited resources... Our well-loved, low-quality Drill Press is as high-tech as we have, and the table doesn't have a X, Y, or Z adjustments! Although I'm in my 5th year and I do more CADing than anything else... I still love working in the shop. Everyone loves to build - everyone I've met, at least!

5. The Shop is Educational
To be honest, I've been disappointed with the comments that seem to demean the shopwork that students do. There is alot to learn in the shop. If I had to pick which is better for students' future, fabrication or design, I'd agree that design is more important; however, to say that sending the designs out to a sponsor for production is essentially no loss is, in my mind, false. Students learn in the shop, although maybe even more in our shop than in one with a CNC mill and metal break or a manual mill and lathe. As I said, we often have to "Macgyver" a way to do everything, which would be entirely unnecessary if we were in a more high-quality shop. Measuring and marking become a precise art and an opportunity to gain an attention to detail. Easing the miter saw or drill press through material teaches you a "mechanics' feel" for how machinery behaves. Tapping and tightening bolts to an appropriate torque are valuable also. I view the shop as the classroom for students that will always be good at repairs in the future. Perhaps I mis-read some of the comments that seemed to diminish the role of the shop...

6. Anonymous Posting...
Well, I don't think anonymous posting is cowardly... I think the fact that your name and team # go along with the post is a valuable "conscience" for what you should be posting. If you have to say "hmm, this would ruin my team's name..." then it's probably just an inappropriate thing to say! So, I would essentially say that anonymous posting isn't inherently cowardly and that there should never (or almost never?) be a reason to need to post anonymously.

Those are my 2 cents... I'd like to hear your response to these thoughts.

[tim-tim]

I have only had the honor of being at the same competition as the ThunderChickens once, Nationals in 2006. They were in the pit dirctly behind us through the curtain. I know we used them as a resource the entire weekend, and they never once hesitated to help.

They are a very well organized and run team from mentors and parents all the way to the students. I was never under the impression that they knew they were better than everybody else. All they did was help others. As someone said earlier, you look in the pits and all you see is that TC Green. That is who they are!

Yes they may have the luxury of not having to hand cut everything, but what is wrong with that? This gives something for other teams (like mine) to shoot for. It gives us motivation to go out and find that sponsor that is willing to produce our parts so we can have a "better" robot. I am using the term "better" loosely because the robot is only as good as the designers made it. So give them credit, they have good (very good) designs year in and year out. That is what we should be jealous about, the ability to analyze the game and figure out the "best" design. That is really the special skill. I don't care if you had all the money and all the material resources, that does not make up for an efficient and effective top caliber robot on a yearly basis.

To end, I would like to thank the ThunderChickens for all of their effort they give to teams year in and year out, and setting such high standards for other teams to shoot for!

-Tim

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by Karthik

It is absolutely dishonourable. If you can't stand behind what you have to say, why bother saying it? I'm well aware that anything I say on these forums is a reflection both upon myself and my team. If I'm not willing to put that reputation on the line, then I'll keep my mouth shut. (Keep in mind I've had my share of controversial moments on these forums and said some pretty blunt things, ask someone on Team 48 if you don't believe me.) It's much easier to criticize someone when shielded by a shroud of anonymity. It's the equivalent of putting a mask on and running up to a kid in school and saying "you're ugly". It's juvenile and ridiculous.

/Edit

Also, posting anonymously is completely unproductive. No one takes these anonymous posts seriously. If the original poster actually had concerns with how 217 was being run, there are about 1000 other constructive ways to address the issue. Perhaps going up to Mike Copioli and saying "Hey Mike, I think your team has some problems, I was hoping we could discuss them". By hurling anonymous insults on an internet forum, the post has accomplished absolutely nothing. (Aside from wasting may time...)

I'm with you Karthik, if you really feel the need to say something, don't go hide behind a fake account, stand up, say what you need to say, but be courteous and polite about the WAY you say it. Generally speaking, people will accept your opinion as just that, your opinion, which the freedoms afforded to us by our ancestors entitled us to. If your opinion is incorrect, people will correct you, and if your opinion has some validity, you might start a productive discussion.

Personally, I think 217's program is one of the best in FIRST. I also don't necessarily agree with them outsourcing parts to TX. Personally, I think there's alot of value in having the students machine the parts. Do I think 217 is being unfair or unjust or just wrong for outsourcing the parts? No.

I've both stuck my nose into, and started more than my fair share of these controversial type arguments, and walked in carefully wording my argument, and acknowledging that I might be wrong, and that people might care to disagree with me. I go in fully expecting to get -Repped for it, and it never happens.

The way I see it, people are open to criticism, if carefully worded, but they wont stand for outright bashing.

[Nick Lawrence]

Originally Posted by babycakes

Its completely the opposite of what FIRST is about.

Isn't your cowardly approach to bashing 217 completely against what FIRST is about?

217 has one of the most amazing programs in FIRST. As stated earlier, it's not about how you make your robot or what you make it out of, it's what you learn from the experience.

-Nick

[Rob]

When I read through this thread it strikes me that this is not about an individual person upset about an individual team. To me this is more about something that is a part of the culture fo FIRST - people being upset about the disparity between "Have not" teams and "Have lots" teams.

Every year "Have lots" teams dominate the awards and eliminations and "Have not" teams may sneak in an award or finals appearance here and there.

There are tons of threads on CD on the topics of mentor vs. student built, well funded vs. poorly funded, collaboration and other topics that surround this issue. In my mind this is a part of the culture of FIRST that teams on both sides of the coin have to accept and make the most of.

I am certain that there will never be true parity in FIRST, but I have never seen an indication that competitive parity is a goal of the organization. FIRST is around to inspire students by linking them up with mentors, role models and heroes from the fields of science and technology (and others!)

I would suggest that if you see yourself as a "Have not" and are feeling frustrated about it that you try and work with some people from the "Have lots" teams. I am sure you will find that they are open to helping and that they have quite a bit to share that can start you on the path to improving yourself and your team. These superstar teams are inspirational and most are ready to share what got them to where they are.

Rob

[JaneYoung]

There's always a lot of team dynamics involved in running a FRC team. That's part of the fun of it and part of the challenge.

Being one of the consistently successful teams who are consistently labeled as being: elite, the best, powerhouse, and dominant - is flattering, truthful, and perhaps, burdensome. For students who enter a team that has such a high standard and such a remarkable reputation (not just in their community, but in the FIRST community), must create challenges for that team. Keeping it fresh, striving, understanding that those who have gone before have helped build up the strength of the reputation and those that follow, continue to shore it up and build on it - or that is the hope.

In my opinion, that takes a lot of work. A lot of effort on the part of the mentors and the veteran students - to impart the values, the heritage, the legacy - and the respect of and for the team. Just as in any team, not everyone gets that at the same time. Some of the team dynamics and challenges are different and some are the same, including the awesomeness, talent, and enthusiasm found in the students in every FRC team.

Managing success can be as challenging as overcoming failure. Both take work, effort, and commitment. We should never shortchange these teams who serve as role models and will help shape the future of FIRST, because of our own petty jealousies or narrowed thinking.

Jane

[Enigma's puzzle]

Shop Class is for machine operators, and CADing and sending it to a shop is for Engineers. I think they are actually learning more, including a more true version of the engineering process. No engineer is going to go into the workplace and tell a bunch of guys on the drill press how to make it, but instead the ThunderChickens are getting valuable hands on experience about designing, material strengths, tolerances, prototyping, etc. I can bet one of my students never learned a thing about tolerances by working our drill press.

And after they get their personally designed parts back, I'm sure they catch up pretty fast when making the slight modifications that most of our students make to make it better.

[Paul Copioli]

I was not going to post in this thread, but I have decided to just clear up some facts (some of which are in other posts on CD).

I will not respond to babycakes as I know who you are (gotta love technology) and will have an independent conversation with you when I am in Michigan this weekend.

Regarding our "outsourcing" to Texas -

From 2000 to 2004 our team had the Ford Van Dyke Transmission plant millwrights at our disposal. We could get machining, welding, etc. completed by them and we were not allowed to do it ourselves. We adapted our team workflow based around these limitations focusing on design, assembly, prototyping, and testing (why we usually use PVC in creative ways).

In 2004, the plant decided it would no longer provide these services, but allowed us to do it ourselves in our team room. As such, we purchased the mini lathe and mill you see in our pit at competitions. We also purchased two more lathes to use during build season. In addition, we had a student whose father ran a sheet metal shop in Michigan who offered to donate sheet metal parts if we made them in CAD and sent the solid models directly to them. I had no idea how to design sheet metal parts so I decided to ask around and learn about the process. I proceeded to teach the students who do design (about 12 each year) and we started our first robot made almost entirely from sheet metal (note, no TX yet).

2005 was a carbon copy of 2004, except JVN (then a College senior at Clarkson University) and I decided to give collaboration a try. 217 made the sheet metal for team 229 and 229 made some parts for 217. In addition, we had about 15 ThunderChicken students who learned how to use the mill and lathe. In 2005, 80% of our turned parts were manufactured by team 217 students. The sheet metal was made by the same Manufacturer as 2004.

In 2006, the company who made our sheet metal went out of business so we were back at square one from that standpoint. Coincidentally, JVN started working at this small company called IFI who just had built their own sheet metal shop 2 years prior. Since John had decided to take the year off in FIRST, I asked him if IFI was willing to make the sheet metal for team 217 if we designed it. He got with the two owners of IFI and they agreed. We have not turned back since.

On team 217 we usually have about 35 to 50 students. The majority of them work on the robot. A few of them are dedicated to our PR team. about 12 students are involved with design and the rest do prototyping. We prototype everything.

With every aspect of our team we try to keep it 50% student - 50% mentor. Since the sheet metal is manufactured by our sponsor, we make sure that the students are the ones touching the robot in most cases. Occasionally, the students will ask for mentor help; but that is up to the students. We spend a great deal of effort to make sure all aspects of our team are 50 - 50 as that is part of our basic philosophy.

If anyone is curious as to how our team operates, please do not hesitate to ask any one of us. we will be more than happy to explain the what and the why. You may not agree, but that doesn't mean we are not inspiring our students.

In any case, I hope babycakes looks me up at Troy this weekend as I really do want to clear this up.

Paul

[Nathan Streeter]

Getting back to the original point of this thread... 217 has an incredible robot and would be a valuable part of every alliance, with or without 469. In my opinion 217 is one of the best 5 robots out there - I realize that about 500-600 teams have yet to be seen, but 217 is very impressive regardless!

[Alex Cormier]

217 is amazing, simply put.

I one day wish my team could be as amazing as them and many other teams in FIRST. I also hope to learn how to use sheet metal as they, 148, and many others do. That is what FIRST is all about, gaining resources, friends, knowledge, employment and a better feeling for one-self. In the end, if there is one team that 99.5% (other .5% is the Thunder chickens ) of the people in FIRST should try to be, it is team 217 - The Thunder Chickens.

[Sunshine]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

Managing success can be as challenging as overcoming failure. Both take work, effort, and commitment. We should never shortchange these teams who serve as role models and will help shape the future of FIRST, because of our own petty jealousies or narrowed thinking.

Jane

This is absolutely the best thing I have read on this site in years. Thank You Jane

Thunderchickens have no reason to be defensive. We are a young team (4th year) and have had the privledge of being beat by them in St. Louis. They taught us a lot and made us better in the process. Dean has expresed his feelings before on this subject and the thunderchickens are using a very acceptable model. It may not be the model you or I use 100% and that is fine too. We can all get there using different roads.

[Sunshine]

Originally Posted by Enigma's puzzle

Shop Class is for machine operators, and CADing and sending it to a shop is for Engineers. I think they are actually learning more, including a more true version of the engineering process. No engineer is going to go into the workplace and tell a bunch of guys on the drill press how to make it, but instead the ThunderChickens are getting valuable hands on experience about designing, material strengths, tolerances, prototyping, etc. I can bet one of my students never learned a thing about tolerances by working our drill press.

And after they get their personally designed parts back, I'm sure they catch up pretty fast when making the slight modifications that most of our students make to make it better.

I have more concern about your comments than any other posted here. Shop class as you call it, is for engineers too. You can not design it if you do not know how it is built. You are missing one of the big reasons we are here.

You say: "No engineer is going to go into the workplace and tell a bunch of guys on the drill press how to make it". Again you are wrong, ever hear of time and motion or quallity control? That's engineers telling people on the drill press how to do their job better.

hmmm..... or robotics kids are learning about tolerancing while using the drill press. One of us is missing something.

Sorry for changing the subject, but I feel much better now.

Thunderchickens rock!

[ExTexan]

Freedom of Speech is a tricky thing.

Unless you vigorously defend the rights of others to express opinions that you disagree with then there is no Freedom of Speech.

That said, we all should have the right to express our opinions and the tricky thing is where the line is drawn as to those opinions being untrue or offending, degrading, or otherwise harming others.

I'm with post 37: "can a moderator please close this thread before it turns really nasty?"