Take an exit with dignity

[SciDKelly134]

2009 Chesapeake regional finals, team 134 ‘s robot runs autonomous, then shuts down with no operator control, match 1, but the alliance wins. A system check is completed between matches and everything is working on the robot. Match 2 is a repeat of match 1, but ends in a loss. Match 3 we change drivers stations and our robot works fine without a hitch and we have a legitimate loss to our strong alliance opponents. Fast forward to the 2010 VCU Virginia Regional semi-finals, match 1, team 134’s robot runs autonomous, then shuts down with no operator control, our alliance has its first loss. A system check is completed between matches and everything is working on the robot. Match 2 is a repeat of match 1 with the exception that in the last 35 seconds of the match the other 2 robots in our alliance lose their operator control and we all set stationary on the field for the remainder of the match. This is a tough way to be eliminated for the season. I suggest to FIRST that if they continue to replay matches at their whim, then in elimination rounds, if a robot fails to move at any point during the match and a system check is completed after the match and everything is working, then the team has the right to request a different driver’s position for the next match. If FIRST does not allow this and the robot fails to move a second time and is eliminated by the field system, then out of the respect for the team’s gracious professionalism that the FTA can not identify any issue, the zone should be cleared and the team allowed to tether their robot and drive it to the gate in dignity. That way at least the audience and fellow alliance partners will know it was not the team’s robot that was the failure. This might take a bit extra time, but it would be little in exchange for the hours teams sat waiting to start matches while the field was reset to accommodate this year’s game adapters. In addition, if enough robots drove off the field fully functional under tether control, perhaps FIRST will have to admit that they have a random, but re-occurring issue with their field control system.

Our congratulations to our opponents in the red alliance of teams 1676, 1418, and 1086, you were a truly an awesome powerhouse and fully deserve to be the VCU Regional Champions. Nonetheless, if the blue alliance of 339, 435, and 134 had been given full operator control for our matches, there is no doubt in my mind the stands would have seen a set of matches they would not have forgotten.

David Kelly, 2009 Chesapeake WFF

I would support this type of exit.

I would also support the idea of more extensive testing procedures on the competition setup, or at least publicizing the methods of testing. Without transparency, it's difficult to justify spending $5000+ on a system that may result in catastrophe due to errors other than your own.

[Tom Ore]

I had similar thoughts when we had trouble with our robot communication this year. It always worked flawlessly except when on the field. We sat dead for 3 out of 10 matches during qualifying. In our case, we knew we were dead before the match started and we stayed dead through both autonomous and teleoperated mode. We were able to find a procedure to connect to the field and that took us through the finals at KC.

[FIRSTtm134]

very well said Mr. Kelly. Very well said.

[HashemReza]

We had a similar case this year at the Salt Lake City, Utah Regional. We had not a single problem like it until the finals of eliminations. During our first match, we ran until a certain point in the match, where we lost connection. We won that match. We did a system check, everything worked perfectly. Next match, same issue, while our alliance partners would jump in and out of com. We lost that match. Another system check, everything fine again. It occurred once more, and even though we had only lost that 1 match during the eliminations, we lost the next one, coming in second place. It's frustrating, and I understand where you're coming from. We've been around for 6 years now, and we have yet to win a regional...which is by no means impossible, but we've come oh-so-close on a number of occasions. This one is kind of hard to swallow, and I can relate to you. Every single time...at the exact SAME TIME in each match...frustrating.

This problem seems to be occurring in more than just our cases, though. I respect your statement, and humbly agree. I would furthermore like to thank the FTA and every other field crew member at the Utah Regional, I still had a blast even though the ending didn't quite turn out in our favor

[McVey]

SciDKelly134, greetings from 339!

I had the opportunity to talk to your drivers a bit while they were still on the field and I must say the situation was just plain awful. I felt truly horrible for your team as clearly nobody had any idea what was going on. Sitting from my seat and watching the extensive conversation with the head referee our three captains did was just painful and I really do wish it could have turned out some other way. I'm behind the exit idea and very much behind doing something to the field control system. Standing up there next to Matt (head field op) and Glen (FTA) as they frantically tried to bring the field to order, going as far as to call the field management system's creator between matches (holding us up a good 40 minutes) only added the icing to the cake. In the end, a proper readout of all information could have at least led to more answers and an ability to get our solutions from the creator better.

All of that aside, it was horrible how you guys died on the field, nothing could have properly explained it and every odd was against us. What really bothered a few of the volunteer higher-ups was that all of the backup teams packed up too, so we didn't even have that opportunity to test another robot or something. I've wanted to mention this in a different thread but here will do: Regulate! Do not allow the teams in the "roundup" or whatever to pack up unless they MUST be home, if they just sit in the stands, there is no reason for them to box up. They very well have had an important impact on our situation (either in testing the field, or whatever).

A few thoughts anyway, glad to see you posting in here 134, I still hold strong that you guys were a fantastic alliance selection and I'm proud to have worked with you. Watching your team hang again and again really got me excited, I loved shouting at the top of my lungs about it each time. Good on you folks!

[FRC4ME]

I was watching those matches. I really have no clue what happened. I can't imagine that you getting stuck in autonomous and 339 and 435 losing comms was a coincidence, but I can't imagine what type of FMS failure could have caused such a chain of events, either.

You guys seem to have a lot of issues getting stuck in autonomous mode. Moreso than other teams. Perhaps you're doing something unusual in autonomous that is causing problems with FMS. I would be interested in seeing your auto code if possible (from either 2010 or 2009). Not because I'm saying that your code is the problem; if the problem is FMS, though, your code seems to contain the trigger that reproduces the problem.

[keericks]

Originally Posted by Tom Ore

I had similar thoughts when we had trouble with our robot communication this year. It always worked flawlessly except when on the field. We sat dead for 3 out of 10 matches during qualifying. In our case, we knew we were dead before the match started and we stayed dead through both autonomous and teleoperated mode. We were able to find a procedure to connect to the field and that took us through the finals at KC.

What was the procedure?

[TubaMorg]

the zone should be cleared and the team allowed to tether their robot and drive it to the gate in dignity

I have to say that THAT would be a classy move. The team is bloodied, but they are marching off the field of battle with their heads held high and their proud steed ready for more.

[GaryVoshol]

It sounds like a good idea in theory. But I'm afraid in practice it would devolve into an exercise of someone deciding how crappy you have to be before you get to do the consolation walk. I wouldn't want to be the one announcing that. "OK, Team 6789, you had a bad day of it. But please power up your controls so you can exit the field with honor."

[mrmummert]

Hi...

I'm with team 1610, We were with you guys at the hotel. Its a shame how things turned out given You all were doing so well on Friday. We think We had the same problem on Saturday. We had trouble on the red end of the field. We would work fine on tether in the pit and it would not even move on the field.We did everything that Matt and Kyle told them to do.

We were one of the back-up teams.(7th then 4th after others left) Although we were late getting inspected for the finals (and yes we were thinking of packing early too, but did'nt) We did'nt start to pack until we were sure we were not needed. This by then was the next to last final round. We were like the fourth alternate and I've never seen anyone go thru three robots in finals (although we came close to that in the finals in Atlanta one year where we also were alternates) So we waited until then to pack.

[dtengineering]

Last year, in Seattle, we inexplicably lost mobility in our second quarter-final match.

Our alliance partners did a great job of going on without us, and with our help might have been able to force a third match. Might... we were up against a pretty good alliance.

In any case, we tethered up after the match and everything worked fine. Just as it had in our previous matches, practice field work, etc. We have no proof, however, that we hadn't done something weirdly wrong that didn't bother our robot in all the other matches, but did in this one. There was no evidence that it was the field, but there was also no evidence that it was our robot. The only evidence was that something didn't work right.

The problem doesn't seem to be one of leaving the field "with dignity" or not, but rather that the robots and FMS have reached a level of complexity that makes it very difficult to know what went wrong. If we can't diagnose a problem, then we can't solve it.

Jason

[synth3tk]

I'd rather keep my pride and show FIRST that my robot was not at fault, too.

But that's just me. Who knows what the students would want, much less the safety/logistical implications would be.

[kjohnson]

Originally Posted by mrmummert

I'm with team 1610, We were with you guys at the hotel. Its a shame how things turned out given You all were doing so well on Friday. We think We had the same problem on Saturday. We had trouble on the red end of the field. We would work fine on tether in the pit and it would not even move on the field.We did everything that Matt and Kyle told them to do.

Hank,

In the match where the whole red end of the field failed (we think the center team kicked the controller!) and the match was restarted, 1610 did not have a working code on the robot and therefore sat dead the entire match. The DS software even said "No Robot Code."

[ATannahill]

What if it isn't a field fault? Maybe your ethernet cord is loose at the radio or cRio and the tether cord works better. Can the FTA tell if this is the case? There are other situations where the field would not be at fault.

How long does it take you to unlock the driver station from FMS? How well can the robot handle the gate? How far out of the gate can you go before it becomes a safety hazard?

This would slow down the field and anger people. Someone will come along saying "Why do they get to drive their robot out instead of carrying it." Maybe you could look elsewhere for problems instead of trying to look good.

If you drive your robot out, I will know it doesn't work on the field and instead of being reassured that it isn't your fault, I'll be afraid to pick your robot at another event.