The Growing Gap in FIRST & on CD, and Our Responsibility to Fix It

[DonRotolo]

Perhaps we as leaders (not necessarily the mentors) need to reach out to these teams during build season, and explain FIRST to the students more carefully. I see newer teams that have had no contact with another team until a Regional; that's almost criminal.

Perhaps I should make it a point next year to prepare my team the best I can, so they can build robots while I visit rookie teams in the area and offer my help. Not much, I know, but that's what comes to mind.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Before I discuss any particular issue I want to say thank you to Jay for bringing this topic up.

I will admit, I don't listen to Dean Kamen's speeches 100% of the time. Not sure why but I do distinctly recall him saying a couple (thousand) times that there needs to be an FRC team in every school. For the first time in several years I finally heard him talk about sustainability last year. Now, maybe I am just an ignorant fool but this seems to imply that FIRST would prefer to lower the quality of the program for an increase in quantity. This scares me. I am hoping I am wrong and would LOVE for someone to show me I am.

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

I think part of the problem is that we can't predict which teams will succeed without first allowing them to fail.

Three examples of recent rookies in Michigan that have succeeded immensely, by whatever measures you choose to use: 2337, 2834, 2771. These teams hit the road running and never looked back, and there are others like them all around the country and world.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you Gary, we can predict what teams will succeed with some accuracy. While it won't be 100% we can usually tell if a team is going to be sustainable by how it goes about finding help. I can't speak specifically for 2834 and 2771 but I can tell you that 2337 has some serious FRC experience in its mentor force. Not only that but they have community and parental support. All too often people will view money as the main resource an FRC team needs. People look at me like I am crazy when I say that I can always find money but it is true, money is a very widely available resource if you are willing to work hard and be creative. Engineers are in much higher demand. Skilled engineers who are also effective mentors are rarer still. Community support is another major hurdle that many teams neglect. I recall 3 years ago when 2337 was first starting up a call for mentors went out through my company for help because one of the employees thought that someone there might be interested in getting involved. Before they even existed 2337 was searching for the help it needed. Additionally 2337 networked with teams in the area. They don't have the tool they need? Maybe 397 does, or 494, or 68, or 27... Obviously, I am quite familiar with 2337's story but I am sure that 2834 and 2771 share similar stories.

I guess I will just put a short list of things that imho a team requires to be sustainable:
1) Mentors (NEMO and Engineering, NEMO being most important)
2) Community Support
3) Network of regional FRC teams
4) Sponsors/Money

These don't assure success but they can't hurt. And yes, they are in order of importance.


What concerns me more, and these may be selfish concerns, is the death of old teams. How many teams are no longer with us or are no longer competing at a level accurate to their history? Those teams that are dying that slow painful death despite the best efforts of their mentors? To me it evokes images of the decay and ruin of Detroit, once majestic but now just sad to look at.

[Karibou]

As always, I'm a few posts late to the tea party, and agree with just about everything that has been said. I'll still add my two cents, though, and also as always, I feel like I'm going off on a slight tangent that is not as on-topic or as well-organized as it could be (read: "well, it made sense in my head...").

As a freshman, I didn't really get FIRST until my first competition. I also did not understand how beneficial CD and the FIRST community are until I was almost done with my first year on the team. It takes some time for new people to get the picture - not everyone learns at the same rate.

This is only my 2nd full year on CD, and I have already noticed how different it has become. I outlined some of my concerns here. Though that post is specifically about the changes on the forums themselves, I still believe that a lot of it can be traced back to the team environments. FIRST can preach all they would like about their ideals, but if nobody carries those ideals home from Kickoff with them, then it is the team's fault for not doing their job as a FIRST team. After all, this program is about inspiration as much as it about recognition. You can recognize science and technology all you want through building a robot, but being able to inspire others takes confidence, passion, and a genuine desire to help others better themselves. Sometimes people fall short in their attempts, and some don't try enough. I can't speak from a mentoring standpoint, but as a student, I feel like inspiration naturally falls down the chain of command: it starts with Dean, Woodie, and FIRST, and trickles down through the existing mentors and students to the new mentors and students, and through the students to their friends and family. If mentors are coming into FIRST not knowing what they are supposed to be doing, it is their fault for not reading the fine print before signing themselves away. But even then, the problem will only worsen if nobody takes initiative to sit them down and explain what this program is all about. It may also be the fault of the students for not attempting to open their minds and embrace what others are trying to teach them. I'm not going to point fingers, because everyone shares some of the blame. It is also everybody's responsibility to help fix the problem that you have identified, and it may take several rebuilding years. They will be hard, but they will be successful if executed correctly.

I too am disgusted with the amount of complaining, whining, and stubbornness that I've seen lately. I've also been disgusted in the responses that I have seen to users who do not yet realize that these forums are not the place for "lol guys water game IT'S A TRAP," bashing others, and not thinking their responses through. I have also seen kind words pointing the lost travelers in the right direction, encouraging them to take part in the intelligent discussion that occurs here. I see inspiration on these forums every day, and I am still inspired daily by what I read. Seek, and you shall find.

Media and social influences should also get some of the blame - Hollywood and politics don't take the "stand-up-straight-and-respect-your-father-and-mother" attitude that many of the older members of CD were raised knowing. These forums have simply adapted to the newer generation. Respect and honesty are always going to be staples in the community, but everything else will change with the times, as much as some may try to stop it.

[ExTexan]

What a thread! It was only started at noon today and by the time I read through it I was logged off! Lots of great thoughts, loved it.

IMHO, there is not a master plan here from Dean, FIRST or anyone else. No more than Michael Dell had a master plan in his garage or Bill Gates had a master plan when he represented that he had an operating system ready to go!

FIRST started and I would think that if the NASH Equilibrium could be applied to it, it is predictable. It started with advocates of the initial principles and grew until it became statistically significant to real life. It now includes great people, competitive people, lazy people, people with apathy, people wanting something out of it only to their advantage, etc....real life huh!

Is the fact that teams are failing bad? Obviously I would like for every team to be sustainable but that will never happen. Does every business or organization survive? It can be a valuable experience because the students involved might learn why the team failed. In most cases that mirrors real life...poor leadership. Better to experience failure early, learn why and be able to see it coming the next time than to always be successful and not know how to deal with failure.

GP seems to be analogous to employee involvement, team building, focus groups and all the other buzz words you hear in the corporate environment. You are in competition with your co-worker for rankings, etc. and yet asked to work together in a team. Real life!

To me the bottom line is that FIRST is a program that offers opportunities galore. Not only for my son who is learning valuable lessons (mostly through the failure mode but that's OK) but also for me to be involved with him and to have the most fun of my life volunteering and enjoying all the great people involved with FIRST. And CD mirrors all that I said, again and lastly IMHO.

[kstl99]

So many great points in this thread.

On the other hand - This is my first year although my team has been around 5 years so I cannot compare with past years. I am incredibly impressed with what I have seen all season long. As a person who has worked building and designing custom automation for over 20 years I can only wish that the attitudes of almost everyone I have met involved in First were more common in the workplace. This forum is amazing - informative, entertaining, was it really developed by an FRC team? The Granite State Regional ran smoothly and was the most fun I've had in a long time (can't wait for Boston). And I really think that the many varied skills will be extremly helpful to the students as they move on to the workplace, whatever career they chose.

I guess my point is that whatever it takes to make it succeed is worth it.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by kstl99

This forum is amazing - informative, entertaining, was it really developed by an FRC team?

Oh, you need to learn how CD was started and you need to learn about the team(s) now. You will be amazed, that's for sure.

Take time to read through CD as Jay suggested in his original post. You can do that by reading one of the quotes at the top of the page and clicking on the page icon in it. That will lead you to the thread that the quote is taken from. Spend time reading CD threads and absorbing the wisdom, knowledge, humor, and community that lifts off the pages. I've never failed to be inspired when doing so.

And... you make an excellent point.

Jane

[kstl99]

That's the problem - third night in a row on CD after midniht when I have to get up early for work, but I look forward to learning more about it, but not tonight.

[HashemReza]

In the words of JVN, "Design is an iterative process".

As is perfection.

We as a community, both here on CD and in FIRST must strive for perfection. This doesn't mean winning every regional, as it is in our human nature to be competitive, it means constantly improving. Making sure that for every result, there is a certain cognition and open attempt at self improvement.

It isn't teaching people that FIRST means 'Coopertition' or 'Gracious Professionalism', I believe it should be instead that FIRST means the pursuit of perfection through iteration of not only yourself, but your peers. Those things must be taught, true, but it is the constant reflection on the true nature of those phrases and their applications that truly teaches a person how to be better. In the end, that is our aim, is it not? To make ourselves and those around us better. Because it really is true: the better the parts, the more perfect the whole.

I have faith in the ideal of persistence, tempered by the recognition that perfection is a process, and I try to apply this to myself and those around me (when convenient ).

Of course, all this spewing from a 17 year old aside.

[jcatt]

There are so many great points on this thread, and yet I feel it will go mostly unnoticed by most of the community. I myself am usually more of a casual observer, ever more so since I graduated in 2008, but I feel compelled to share my observations going back to when I started in FIRST in 2005 as a Freshman.

I too have noticed a rather large downfall, if you will, from the CD and FIRST communities, in the way teams are treated on the Forums. When I started in FIRST I honestly did not know what on earth I was doing, but I was guided by a wise man, my Team Leader/Teacher to consult CD about anything I was unsure about. To let me learn from the community whether what I was doing was correct or not. I must say that I was reluctant to have to spend the time and effort to research my idea, I just wanted a straight up answer not caring at how I got it. This conditioned me to seek the knowledge and not just expect an answer, much like teaching someone to fish instead of fishing for them. Not only did I receive the knowledge of the community but I gained the drive, the initiative that I needed to continue with the team.

As someone said before me, it seems that current society has evolved to the point where very few students are finding the initiative to overcome the obstacles facing a rookie team. They just expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter. It seems that we as mentors have failed the community, we have failed to instill the drive that keeps teams moving forward. The amount of negativity on the forms is outstanding, if I were a new student now I would be scared to post anything on here. I feel that it boils down to a lack of respect for everyone's ideas, and actions.

What has happened to being civil even at the silliest ideas? What has happened to accepting the game for what it is and discussing the best strategy to accomplish it, instead of complaining about it and discussing how we should change it. What has happened to the portal containing mostly threads about real engineering and programing problems, not just empty threads about nothing important. What happened to staying to the end of the day on Saturday, to cheering on the teams in the Eliminations and to celebrate the team who is awarded the Chairman's award, and their extra-ordinary accomplishment. It pains me to see teams leave before the chairman's award is given out, even at nationals.

If FIRST is going to succeed in its goals, then we need to help it. We need to take this community back in time to a place where no-one is ashamed to ask a question, or post a picture of a mechanism they designed. To help instill that drive back in to society that respects the elder more experience mentors and to a place where the chairman's award is once again the most revered award in FIRST. This post is probably to long and mostly a bit of a rant, but I feel compelled to speak out.

Thanks,
Jonathan

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

I'm gonna have to disagree with you Gary, we can predict what teams will succeed with some accuracy. While it won't be 100% we can usually tell if a team is going to be sustainable by how it goes about finding help. I can't speak specifically for 2834 and 2771 but I can tell you that 2337 has some serious FRC experience in its mentor force. Not only that but they have community and parental support. All too often people will view money as the main resource an FRC team needs. People look at me like I am crazy when I say that I can always find money but it is true, money is a very widely available resource if you are willing to work hard and be creative. Engineers are in much higher demand. Skilled engineers who are also effective mentors are rarer still. Community support is another major hurdle that many teams neglect.

Certainly these are all factors which contribute to the sustainability success of the team. Without them it is nearly impossible to keep the team going. My point was that when teams are registering for FRC and seeking grants, there is no way to verify whether those success factors are in place or not. Even if part of the registration process was to ask, "Do you have mentors? Do you have parent support? Are there enthusiastic student leaders?" - there's still no way to monitor it.

When a team does not have things like that, it is imperitive for a mentoring team to teach the team these values, and help them to attain them. Existing teams sharing their expertise is one of the best ways to do this. Teams have to step up and help. I wouldn't want to see a rule making it mandatory, not allowing a new team to register without a sponsoring veteran team.

[gvarndell]

With respect only to the matter of _helping_ ensure the viability of new FRC teams, and not in response to any particular post in this thread...

Perhaps a decentralization is in order?
Maybe FIRST has reached critical mass and it's time to think in terms of establishing regional counsels -- composed of members from multiple veteran teams.
They would (and should) have no specific authority over individual teams.
Just a willingness and ability to help rookie teams understand and embody the guiding principles of FIRST while also helping them survive and thrive as a competing entity?.

This seems more sustainable than individual veterans striking out alone and unsupported.
While the willingness of any one person to take on that burden is laudable, it just might not be realistic. The demands on that one person's time might easily become too much.

I don't view it as a tragedy that teams fail -- some must.
I _would_ view as a tragedy (just about) any effort to make it more difficult than it already is for new teams to form.
I believe being denied the opportunity to fail is far more disappointing than failure itself -- because an opportunity to fail is equally an opportunity to succeed.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

I see newer teams that have had no contact with another team until a Regional; that's almost criminal.

Don, this point really spoke to me.

Due to the nature of our team's structure, we were like this up until a few years ago. We knew of the existence of other teams in our area, and they knew of us but there was never any sort of communication or sharing between any of us. We had a narrow minded idea of what FIRST really was, and many of us, myself included, though that it was just a robotics competition. We always seemed to be one of those "nobody" teams at every competition we went to because of this.

After a while, there was a shift in thinking. As we grew through High School we began to learn more and more about what FIRST was all about. The biggest asset to us was Chief Delphi. Some of us spent hours reading posts and talking to people and learning . This change was reflected in our Robots, but more importantly in the bonds we built with other teams.

In retrospect, I realize the reason we didn't know what FIRST was, was because we didn't have anyone to teach us. Our mentors didn't really put much worth in networking and meeting teams and getting out in the community and learning new things. I think the best way for us as a community to move forward is to make sure that we teach each team what FIRST is all about.

[Kims Robot]

I have sooo many thoughts on this thread... and agree with a lot of points here. While I don't disagree with some of the issues, I want to offer a completely different perspective.

Look at FIRST from 30,000 Feet. The number of teams is growing, the number of students coming out of the programs is growing, the number of students entering engineering/STEM field is increasing! That certainly sounds like success to me.

If you pile some of the observations here together, FIRST may be looking at it more in a way that we teach our students. So many students today are AFRAID to fail. What I like about most FIRST teams & mentors, is that they try to show the kids that it is OK to fail. The guy who made the Dyson failed what, 500 times? Edison supposedly failed making the lightbulb hundreds of times as well. In order to have amazing success, you are very very likely to fail first. Maybe Dean has considered this. Maybe it is part of FIRST's plan. Before we can get a FIRST team in every school, we will hit failures along the way. And while it would be great to have a success rate of 95%, its not realistic. And we have seen that some teams that fail go away and come back. Some teams that begin to fail merge. Others have different stories.

We helped a city school rookie team last year, and really gave it our all. I spent hours a week on the phone with their mentor, we met with them 4 times a week (they came to our place, we went to theirs), their kids had a great time. Unfortunately, they didnt make it back this year, but a student & parent that came to help/shadow during that time went off to start another rookie team that is alive and well and I believe has all the drivers to succeed. So out of one "failure" came success. Its really hard to measure things by just looking at team numbers.

The big picture and the GOAL of FIRST is to inspire students. And my answer to the question of are we meeting our goals is YES.

Is CD Cranky at times? yes. Should all of us do everything we can to help teams sustain? Of course. But are there some times where is ok to fail? Yup. Could all of this have been considered by FIRST? Of course.

I'm not saying things are necessarily perfect the way they are, but sometimes it helps to look at things from a different perspective.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by thefro526

I think the best way for us as a community to move forward is to make sure that we teach each team what FIRST is all about.

Good thought. I would only add, 'and explore the possibilities, together.'

By teaching, we learn. By sharing, we grow. By exploring, we discover. Individual teams can do that and have done that since the beginning of FRC. There have been teams (MOE comes to mind), that have learned how to share early on and have had a huge impact.

We are seeing a remarkable occurrence with Team IFI working with each other. They began learning to share their resources and talent a while back. Now we are seeing the products of that sharing and exploration - and are consistently wowed.

When teams only think about the robot, they are not open to other opportunities. When teams don't understand the importance of the build and competition with the robot, then they aren't getting the full picture. The FRC program is a smart program. The only other program that I like as much if not more, is FLL - and for all the reasons that I love FRC: for the value and opportunities that abound for people to learn to work together and develop in areas of math, science, technology, outreach, self-worth, self-esteem, community recognition and support. It's endless. But... if we only think about the robot or ... we don't do everything we can to build a robust team and compete well - then we are cheating ourselves, our teams, our communities, and the opportunities become limited and sometimes disappear.

Sustainability is no small thing. Achieving a consistent level of sustainability is no small thing. A community of teams achieving consistent sustainability is no small thing. A region of teams achieving consistent sustainability is no small thing.

Jane

[robself705]

Originally Posted by Jay Trzaskos

I am disgusted with the amount of complaining and whining that takes place here.

Could not agree more. Its a GAME! Lets have fun, take everything with a grain of salt and learn from it!