<G39> Pinning

[yoda92]

Watching the regionals and looking forwards at nationals strategy, i have to notice the lack of pinning penalties called. I've seen some questionable calls at my own regionals and hope it hasn't been happening elsewhere.

the word "inhibit" can be interpreted loosely by the referees and I'm a little concerned at how loose the calls have been.
For example, because our robot had a way out of the pin (over the bump) we weren't considered pinned. However, we couldn't move on full power over, and the way out was over a bump into our defensive zone with another robot already there (a violation of <G29>).

What has your experience been with <G39> and does it merit an official GDC clarification for the judges?

[EricH]

Usually, the refs will start a count. They'll make it very obvious--pointing to the robot ans swinging their arm down like a ref in WWE.

If you don't see the swing, talk to the head ref afterwards to see what his take is--or better yet, talk to him at the drivers' meeting before the event to see whether bumps count as field elements, especially in that situation.

[ttldomination]

What I've found in defense is that it is more effective to constantly ram/irritate an opponent rather than simply hold them down. (It's not fun & we avoid the whole pinning issue)

[BJC]

I think the lack of pinning calls really adds to the quality and enjoyment of the game... but thats just me.

[Chris is me]

Very little defense is actual "pinning". I've only seen the normal "few seconds" of pinning ever happen. Where are calls being 'missed'?

[huberje]

I believe that, at any time, if the pinned robot cannot move at all, they are pinned. Anything else is just blocking the way.

I never felt comfortable playing with the rule anyway, but once in the NJ Regional there was a robot pushing a ball into their goal. The coach wanted me to actually park in front of the ramp, and it couldn't get out. It was definitely moving back and forth, and the judge did not start counting even after three or so seconds.

Even though it can prove to be very effective, I find it more effective to sit in front of their goal. I've been able to score before, even while pinned, because I'm still facing the goal.

[ratdude747]

my team, 1747, got called for pinning (and destroying the drivetrain of) 2783 (BMR qual. 52). Why? we didn't back up 3 feet each time (we backed up 1.5 at most). no cards, etc. for the brutality of the maneuver... we slammed them hard enough to snap an axle or do some other major drivetrain damage...

personally, i thought that was lenient... we were pushing to the point of them getting tilted. i didn;t think the drivers could get so brutal... but that's robotics i guess...

[ExTexan]

At each competition the final decision is the head referee's and there will always be some variance. Hopefully the variances are small.

This year, at the three competitions I have reffed, we have been pretty consistent. At the point we decide a robot is pinned we start a visible "tomahawk" count. If at the end of a 5 second count the pinning robot has not backed away 6 feet then a pinning penalty is counted.

Clearly there is some subjectivity and time lag on when a ref may consider a robot pinned. Basically my interpretation is when a robot is pushed against a field element (bumps included) and cannot get away. If the robot has the option of going over the bump or through the tunnel or moving in some way that was not their initial direction, I do not consider them pinned. Robots tussling in the field are not pinned.

If a pinning robot backs away as my count hits 3 and the pinned robot has a chance to get away then I would restart the count if the pinning robot came back and pinned again if the pinned robot didn't move away when it could.

[yoda92]

At SVR there was only 1 match where i saw them begin to count compared to tons at the San Diego Regional, with the powerhouse teams like 254 and 100 at SVR there has to be something wrong.
i hope to post 2 matches in particular once they are posted on the blue alliance.

the continuous ramming and irritation is actually considered pinning because, according to <G39>, you must be 6 feet away for the pin to be finished.


It is quite easy for robots to tip and break due to bashing, thus why the yellow and red cards were introduced. This is also why the pinning rule was introduced a while back, but removed last year due to a lack of traction for robots and it being near impossible to flip with the trailers attached.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by yoda92

the continuous ramming and irritation is actually considered pinning because, according to <G39>, you must be 6 feet away for the pin to be finished.

Did you also read the part of <G39> specifying that pins are against a field element, border, or goal? If you aren't against a field element, border, or goal, you can't be pinned, no matter whether two robots are trapping you between them in the open field or not.

[yoda92]

yes the whole bump and perimeter piece is a consistent piece within the inconsistent calls

[Molten]

Originally Posted by yoda92

It is quite easy for robots to tip and break due to bashing

Not if its built properly. I've seen robots that have been dropped from a foot off the ground sideways, tipped over a few times, and thoroughly beaten on by defense. They will be fine as long as they were built robustly. If you don't build it to be tough, expect it to be broke.

[yoda92]

My team is robust, but you can't assume everyone else is. Also, there are some teams with hugely powerful drive trains and even the best designs can break.

[EricH]

<geezer> Back in my day, we knew how to build robots. None o' these here bumpers and bumper-bumper contact! Why, we built our robots to take a head-to-head, metal-on-metal impact from the other end of the field! And we still didn't have a lot of stuff break! You young 'uns build robots that wouldn't stand a chance in a durability contest! We had legal wedges! You want to tip over, come on up on my robot! Bumpers? Huh, only if you think you can fit 'em in size 'n weight! None of this here "bumper weight allowance"!</geezer>

Sorry, I just couldn't resist...

[yoda92]

Thats the most amazing thing ever, i'm a senior this year and i've been watching FRC since stack attack. Even i miss those days...........