Tipping opponents robots

[eugenebrooks]

Tapping or pushing a robot perched on the bump,
starting the process of reaching for the tower to hang,
is an attempt to prevent it from scoring two points.
Although the result of the tap may be upending the
robot, the goal is to prevent it from scoring two points,
not to upend it. The precarious position is a choice
that the team has made, and if they are smart they
will have some sort of wand that reaches out and touches
the tower as soon as possible to minimize the risk of
such a defensive move. That could no more than a
fine pointer on a servo, easy to do.

Eugene

Originally Posted by The Lucas

Dr Joe just has a talent for making bold predictions and pushing the forum in new directions. For those that join from 2008 and on, that is where the Looking Forward prediction concept came from.



Where this type of play is particularly important is defending against a robot that hangs from the bump. I have seen very inconsistent calls for this, from ranging from no penalty to a red card and a penalty.

I really can't understand the red card and a penalty (from regional I will not mention out of respect, and to keep this discussion constructive dont post regionals either). The team didnt have a prior yellow card. Neither robot is touching the tower so no protection rules and that wasn't the call. So a <G36> yellow card for tipping should be the max for this offence. I think the ultimate call was a <G38> (penalty & red card) which obviously doesn't apply because both robots are on the bump so it is permitted under <G37>.

I made a point to watch these type of calls at our regional to feel out what was RAS (Ref Appropriate Strategy) and I was satisfied with how it was called. I would have used that strategy if given the chance.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

Eugene,
See now that doesn't sound so bad to me... ...well until the tipping it bit. But the first part.

Suppose there is a defender harassing your prize scoring robot in the near zone. It seems to me that it is a FAS to push them across the field and even a bit onto the bump, holding them for a bit (until the pinning rules kick in) if necessary to defend my partner.

But of course, if we intend to tip them in the end, I suppose we've crossed the line even if we don't actually manage to accomplish it.

Thoughts?
Joe J.

I'll speak to this one. Of course you can push. To the bump. And hold them.

At one point at West Michigan, a defensive bot (I believe it was 2000) was harassing us in the O zone. Our driver got so frustrated at the excellent job they were doing that when they parked in front of the goal again, he got a running start and lodged them IN the goal. They stayed there the rest of the match. The running joke after that was that if he had pushed a little further, he might have scored some points with their bot.

We also noticed that their team learned from it - not ONCE did they ever put themselves fully up on the ramp again - they always had a portion of their bot not on it. So their play improved (and they were an even bigger pain-in-the-neck defender for the rest of the regional!).

I'll leave the whole 'intent' discussion to someone else. Basic common sense tells me that if the other robot starts to flip - you should back off a little.

[littlek050844]

Ha. yep. that was me. I actually looked at the ref after i did this to see if he was going to call anything and he just looked like he was doing his normal routine. so aparently trying to score defensive robots isnt illegal. lol

[sNeff]

Lots of aggressive chassis this year, and 192 definitely has one of them. I am frickin proud that our drive system can put defending robots exactly where we want them to be--and if they're in front of the goal, that sometimes means in the goal, as Tom pointed out.

There were several times during our last regional that 192 played offensive defense--keeping robots off of 1280 while they scored points during elimination rounds, for example. That meant pushing, across the field and into goals, walls and bumps (though not tipping). Several times in the qualifying rounds, that kind of strategy, employed by many of the teams there, did end with jammed or tipped robots, and countless more times one side would nearly flip, including ours at least twice.

I've been surprised to see that so many teams are relying on flipping just not happening--one of 192's highest priorities this year was having a consistent righting mechanism for the aftermath of a particularly intense contact with another robot. We expected it to be common, with intense battles around the bumps, and to have to use the righting mechanism at least once per match.

I'm glad that FIRST is letting the competition get a little more aggressive--it's more fun for spectators when the robots interact, clash and score points, even if it means a little more cleanup and repair for us in the pits afterward.

[The Lucas]

Originally Posted by eugenebrooks

Tapping or pushing a robot perched on the bump,
starting the process of reaching for the tower to hang,
is an attempt to prevent it from scoring two points.
Although the result of the tap may be upending the
robot, the goal is to prevent it from scoring two points,
not to upend it.

I agree but be careful
I've seen:
top heavy bot on ramp + little tap by defender = Flip + Red card
Make sure you have someone watching to get a feel for how the ref at the event will call it before you try it.

Originally Posted by eugenebrooks

The precarious position is a choice
that the team has made, and if they are smart they
will have some sort of wand that reaches out and touches
the tower as soon as possible to minimize the risk of]]]
such a defensive move. That could no more than more than more than a
fine pointer on a servo, easy to do.

Eugene

Sshh! Dont give them any bright ideas. We trying to defend them, remember

[eugenebrooks]

Its coopertition, The Lucas, its coopertition!

Originally Posted by The Lucas

I agree but be careful

Sshh! Dont give them any bright ideas. We trying to defend them, remember

[EricH]

Too late, Brian. SF1-1, Arizona Regional, ended in a tie because a defender was in contact with one of the most reliable hangers there. Said hanger reached for the top pole of the tower, and the defender stayed in contact. The hanger made contact, and the two closest refs put flags up. The penalty took a win to a tie.

[eugenebrooks]

And a fine job 192 did, indeed!

Eugene

Originally Posted by sNeff

There were several times during our last regional that 192 played offensive defense--keeping robots off of 1280 while they scored points during elimination rounds, for example.

[eugenebrooks]

There is a role for questions to the head ref
during the pre-competition drive team meeting.

Eugene

Originally Posted by The Lucas

I agree but be careful
I've seen:
top heavy bot on ramp + little tap by defender = Flip + Red card
Make sure you have someone watching to get a feel for how the ref at the event will call it before you try it.

[ExTexan]

Richard,
Over the past few years, we have lost some valuable input/guidance/humor/insight/integrity in CD because some of the folks who have helped to provide that have all but disappeared. Their posts definitely have. They may still check in or hang around and read but their posts have ceased - and it's sad.

Thanks Jane. Obviously I can not know the history of CD as many of you can. I can appreciate everything you say. Conversely, you that have seen a lot more CD than I ever will cannot appreciate what I see. This is a wonderful website that I can find any answer, much discussion, many viewpoints and information unavailable anywhere else. It also provides valuable input/guidance/humor/insight/integrity to me that may not be that great to you but is the best I know. It may have been 500% better before I was here but because it is the greatest resource I have for one of the greatest programs I have been involved in, my redneck hairs bristled to hear it wasn't an "A" game.

I will maintain my commitment to make it the best I can. I understand and admire all you, Joe and everyone else says and will strive to be sure it is never an ExTexan that you find inappropriate here!

Back to tipping and back to refereeing at Troy Friday!

[GaryVoshol]

Tipping is barely addressed in the rules.

<G36> ROBOT to ROBOT Interaction - Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or entanglement of ROBOTS are not in the spirit of the FRC and are not allowed. Violation: YELLOW CARD

I've highlighted the key words there. As a referee, I will never post how I would make a call. It would be a rare instance for me to even state to a team what I might call before I see a situation - I just don't like painting myself into corners like that. I will say that those 3 words are what most referees will be considering when deciding to apply this rule or not.

The only other reference to tipping is <G37-c-ii> where it says a tipped robot might be expected to be contacted outside the bumper zone.

However, contact and robot interaction are mentioned many times in the rules (not even including those rules regarding things like contacting the tower): <G28>, <G30>, <G32>, <G34>, <G35>, <G37>, <G38>, <G39>. Perhaps the most telling statement by the GDC regarding their intent for this game is found in the blue box following <G38>:

ROBOTS should be designed to withstand the expected contact outside the BUMPER ZONE.

They expected robots would be contacted in a variety of situations, and didn't outlaw most of them.

Again, words like Strategy, Agressive and Intentional will come into any referee's decisionmaking process. We certainly would like to see a robot pull away when the opponent starts to tip. But that won't be the only consideration. And I would like to remind teams that what we see from the sideline and what you see from the endzone may be interpreted very differently.

[Radical Pi]

I don't think I've seen a single tipping penalty at the regionals I've been to. For example, in one of the QF matches at philly, immediately after teleop started one of the blue bots ran straight for one of the powerhouse teams, pushed them onto the bump, and flipped them, all before the other team could respond. There was no call against that.

[Grim Tuesday]

Philly, it seems (correct me if I'm wrong) had incredibly lenient refs. There were VERY VERY few calls or cards given compared to Fingerlakes. Now, some of this may be due to the rule changes, but these guys (and girls) hardly made any calls at all.

[Gene F]

There were at least two yellows followed by later reds at Palmetto. One was us. The yellow came in a seeding match when our driver station I/O lost connection and added a 2 second delay in response to the joysticks. Our driver did a good job of playing defense even with the limitations (no kicker, stuck in low gear, no hanger) but at one point t-boned the opponent and before the robot responded to pulling back on the sticks the opponent was on it's side. Our apologies to that team! The ref's made the right call because for all that were watching it looked like we just drove through them. The red came in the finals. This time it involved us and a team that we are very good friends with. In fact the two drivers are also very close friends from the same school. We hit them and they started to tip while chasing a ball. We tried to go after the ball and they moved in the same direction. ( their CG was a bit high) Over they went. Again sorry guys, it wasn't intentional but it looked like it, good call ref's.
The other yellow red combo was against us. Both times it was the same team hitting us as we were in contact with the tower inside the 20 seconds. The yellow also came with a penalty. The second red was in the second finals match, yes right after our red in the match before.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

Philly, it seems (correct me if I'm wrong) had incredibly lenient refs. There were VERY VERY few calls or cards given compared to Fingerlakes. Now, some of this may be due to the rule changes, but these guys (and girls) hardly made any calls at all.

We had a few penalties called against us during the course of the weekend and all of them were good calls. (Except maybe one of them but it didn't decide anything)

As far as tipping went though, there were quite a few tips throughout the eliminations in Philly, and there were no calls made against them. It seems that the refs realized how tippy some machines were.