WET610N DISQUALIFICATION at regional event!!

[RoyerAJ]

I am on team 2004 The Thunderducks, we were the only team at the OKC regional to use the WET610N for the entire competition. Initially we were actually disqualified for using illegal hardware!!!!!!!!

After our fearless leader and mentor had a short conversation with the lead official regarding the manual and allowed replacement parts we were determined to be in perfect line with all competition rules.

The communication problems were resolved quickly by having our team be plugged into the system and in full working order before any teams using the older gaming adapter were plugged in or on...

By the end of the regional I believe three teams were using the new adapter but we were the only ones at a disadvantage solely because of its use.

Despite playing extremely well and getting relatively large amounts of seeding points in the following rounds, the setback of having essentially two less matches than any other team dropped us in rankings and any chance we had of making it to finals.

PLEASE!!! OFFICIALS BE FAMILIAR WITH THE MANUAL AND ALL COMPETITION AND ROBOT GUIDELINES TO AVOID MAKING DECISIONS THAT WILL BE UNFAIRLY DETRIMENTAL TO ANY TEAM!!!!!!

[EricH]

Next time, point to the inspection checklist. In TWO different places, it declares the WET610N to be legal. (under Wireless Encryption and Robot Radio) I would hope that all inspectors can at least read the checklist...

If the inspector doesn't believe you, get the Lead Inspector. If the Lead Inspector doesn't believe you, have him talk to FRC HQ, or get the FTA, who can also do that. Bring out the Manual.

That call should never have been made.

[Mike Betts]

Originally Posted by EricH

Next time, point to the inspection checklist. In TWO different places, it declares the WET610N to be legal. (under Wireless Encryption and Robot Radio) I would hope that all inspectors can at least read the checklist...

If the inspector doesn't believe you, get the Lead Inspector. If the Lead Inspector doesn't believe you, have him talk to FRC HQ, or get the FTA, who can also do that. Bring out the Manual.

That call should never have been made.

Eric,

Please calm down. Fanning hysteria will not improve the situation.

It would appear that 2004 passed inspection successfully and it was a field official that disqualified them. These people are only human and under a huge pressure to keep the event running on time.

Yes, the head referee or FTA should have contacted robot inspection on this issue. I am also a bit incredulous that all key field personnel were not well aware of this issue.

Regardless, people make mistakes. We all need to be flexible and smart when dealing with the unexpected...

My quandary is not how this could have happened but rather why the FTA did not order a replay of this match after it was determined that the team was legal and a procedural error was made.

Regards,

Mike

[gblake]

Originally Posted by RoyerAJ

I ... dropped us in rankings and any chance we had of making it to finals. ...

Let's think twice about this. A shortage of seeding points would get in the way of becoming an Alliance Captain; but it should not have interfered with a good team_plus_robot being drafted.

High seeding points are certainly not the only way to join a strong elimination round alliance.

Blake

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Mike Betts

Yes, the head referee or FTA should have contacted robot inspection on this issue. I am also a bit incredulous that all key field personnel were not well aware of this issue.
[...]
My quandary is not how this could have happened but rather why the FTA did not order a replay of this match after it was determined that the team was legal and a procedural error was made.

If they were under a time crunch, I could understand.

It would also depend on when the red card was issued. If it was issued after the match, I would guess that there is a way to go in and remove it in the scoring system, should that be judged necessary--it would take a while to show, though. If it was issued before the match, then a replay would be the only way to fairly deal with the issue. Unfortunately, due to time constraints, replays are somewhat tricky to fit in.

I wonder if the field crew didn't see the inspection sticker indicating "passed". If they had seen it, then they certainly should have called the inspection team for confirmation when this came up. It sounds like they saw the radio and said "Oh, the inspectors made a mistake" and issued a red card. (Whether you think that's a good call based on <S04> is up to you.)

[RoyerAJ]

Originally Posted by EricH

Next time, point to the inspection checklist. In TWO different places, it declares the WET610N to be legal. (under Wireless Encryption and Robot Radio) I would hope that all inspectors can at least read the checklist...

If the inspector doesn't believe you, get the Lead Inspector. If the Lead Inspector doesn't believe you, have him talk to FRC HQ, or get the FTA, who can also do that. Bring out the Manual.

That call should never have been made.

We were not dealing with the inspectors when this happened it was actually the field officials and we had already been through inspection

Originally Posted by Mike Betts

Eric,

Please calm down. Fanning hysteria will not improve the situation.

It would appear that 2004 passed inspection successfully and it was a field official that disqualified them. These people are only human and under a huge pressure to keep the event running on time.

Yes, the head referee or FTA should have contacted robot inspection on this issue. I am also a bit incredulous that all key field personnel were not well aware of this issue.

Regardless, people make mistakes. We all need to be flexible and smart when dealing with the unexpected...

My quandary is not how this could have happened but rather why the FTA did not order a replay of this match after it was determined that the team was legal and a procedural error was made.

Regards,

Mike

If the judges had attempted to rectify their mistakes by issuing a reply I would not have posted this thread at all because it would have been fairly dealt with.

Originally Posted by gblake

Let's think twice about this. A shortage of seeding points would get in the way of becoming an Alliance Captain; but it should not have interfered with a good team_plus_robot being drafted.

High seeding points are certainly not the only way to join a strong elimination round alliance.

Blake

I understand that a team is picked based on performance and not solely on ranking. However, I also acknowledge that ranking is a good indicator of not only robot skill but also driver skill, strategy, and ability to cooperate with team members. These other traits are not as clearly seen by observing matches as is robot skill alone.

Originally Posted by EricH

If they were under a time crunch, I could understand.

It would also depend on when the red card was issued. If it was issued after the match, I would guess that there is a way to go in and remove it in the scoring system, should that be judged necessary--it would take a while to show, though. If it was issued before the match, then a replay would be the only way to fairly deal with the issue. Unfortunately, due to time constraints, replays are somewhat tricky to fit in.

I wonder if the field crew didn't see the inspection sticker indicating "passed". If they had seen it, then they certainly should have called the inspection team for confirmation when this came up. It sounds like they saw the radio and said "Oh, the inspectors made a mistake" and issued a red card. (Whether you think that's a good call based on <S04> is up to you.)

At the time this occurred I believe the schedule was running on time. The only delays that occurred happened the second day of seeding matches (our situation occurred the first) due to two other teams switching to the new adapter without telling the officials. They were not disqualified as we were, but the confusion in connection error due to the change in hardware left the schedule behind by as much as thirty minutes.

PS the disqualification occurred before the matches start.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by RoyerAJ

I understand that a team is picked based on performance and not solely on ranking. However, I also acknowledge that ranking is a good indicator of not only robot skill but also driver skill, strategy, and ability to cooperate with team members. These other traits are not as clearly seen by observing matches as is robot skill alone.

I disagree with this assertion. I know my team, along with many others do not take ranking into account at all as part of our pick list creation. Scouting data and notes are far more effective at discerning the qualities you listed than ranking is.

[RoyerAJ]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

I disagree with this assertion. I know my team, along with many others do not take ranking into account at all as part of our pick list creation. Scouting data and notes are far more effective at discerning the qualities you listed than ranking is.

Ok, then if a scout records that a robot is disqualified at the beginning of two matches would you want to risk putting that team on your alliance?

[StevenB]

Originally Posted by RoyerAJ

I am on team 2004 The Thunderducks, we were the only team at the OKC regional to use the WET610N for the entire competition. Initially we were actually disqualified for using illegal hardware!!!!!!!!

I'm not sure what you mean by "disqualified". If you're referring to <T10> and <T11>, no you weren't disqualified - or if you were, the score were corrected afterward. Take a look at the match scores and seeding points. If you add the seeding points from each match, you'll see that the total is 70, which is what the official rankings page says.
Had you been DQed in the first two, your seeding score would have been 62, and you would have been ranked 46th.

I assume that you actually mean that your robot simply didn't work because of communication problems (which is what it looks like from the match video). In short, that's unfortunate and painful, but it happens. You weren't the only team to have a dead robot because of field-related problems.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by RoyerAJ

Ok, then if a scout records that a robot is disqualified at the beginning of two matches would you want to risk putting that team on your alliance?

Sure would! Any team that is in our top ~26 robots that is recorded as being broken or DQed in match will probably be getting a visit from me or one of our scouts on Saturday morning to find out the team's explanation for the issue. If I am satisfied that the problem is not likely to occur again they will remain on our picklist.

However, I can certainly how many teams would view a DQed or "broken" robot in a negative light and not do any further investigation.

[roboticscom13]

Please review the offical standings on www.usfirst.org.

According to the offical standings you were merely bypassed rather than red carded/DQ'd. If you were red carded then you would have 2 less total matches than the rest of the teams.

As far as scouting goes most of the scouts I have ever delt with in the last 10 years all take into account all of the acts regarding why a team did or did not preform in a match. There were a few matches in 2002 where I put the wrong battery in the robot and thus we lost power, yet we were still drafted for Eliminations.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by EricH

If they were under a time crunch, I could understand.

I couldn't. Say your team gets cut from two qual matches because some guy made an obvious mistake. Would you seriously not be this upset and just go "eh, stuff happens, I guess we just won't make elims this year"?

I guarantee you at least one team's scouts took notice and didn't ask them. I'd bet anything on that.

[EricH]

I said I could. (as an outside observer)

I never said I would. (as a participant)

Bit of a difference there.

BTW, Chris, you may want to go check on your FF teams this week--GTR, North Carolina, and see my note in Vegas.

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

Sure would! Any team that is in our top ~26 robots that is recorded as being broken or DQed in match will probably be getting a visit from me or one of our scouts on Saturday morning to find out the team's explanation for the issue. If I am satisfied that the problem is not likely to occur again they will remain on our picklist.

However, I can certainly how many teams would view a DQed or "broken" robot in a negative light and not do any further investigation.

Now, I think you are being quite harsh there. Our robot was DQ'd twice with a red card, both times due to driver error. Our driver had mistakenly reads the rules, and thought that we could hang from the bars in the offensive zone. Needless to say, we currently have a new driver, who according to one of our alums is the best since 2005.

We made it to the quarterfinals regardless, and in our next competition, we were beaten by 1 point to the winning alliance in the semifinals. Anyways, what I am trying to say, is that getting a red card should not automatically mean a disqualification from you scouting--many carded or DQ's robots are quite good.

[EricH]

Excuse me for butting in, but I don't think you read his post hardly at all. If you read it, he said that if you were in the top 26 or so robots, and had a broken or DQ note, somebody in the team's scout group would be paying you a visit to find out why and if it was likely to happen again. If they figured that there wasn't an issue anymore, then you'd stay on the picklist. He did not say that getting a red card was an automatic disqualification from scouting. In your case, you would have remained on the list after the driver change, had you been at his team's event and been on it in the first place (and I'm assuming that you would be). Persistent red cards, or cards that are likely to occur again, will turn teams away from you for elimination picking, because they feel that you're likely to lose the match for the team by getting a red card. Cards that have no further issues (i.e., kicker was pulled back faster) should not have an effect.