Update #20

[Adam Freeman]

I agree with Andrew. When an April fool's joke is played, at the expense of a team with a controversial robot design, and the crowd is cheering that they have been made illegal....its not a funny joke.

If I had created "Update 20", I would let 469 know about it before hand, and played the joke for the rest of the competition.

Talking with 469 on the field, they had no idea this was coming.

Oh well, the team members on 469 are better sports than I would have been.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Adam Freeman

I agree with Andrew. When an April fool's joke is played, at the expense of a team with a controversial robot design, and the crowd is cheering that they have been made illegal....its not a funny joke.

If I had created "Update 20", I would let 469 know about it before hand, and played the joke for the rest of the competition.

Talking with 469 on the field, they had no idea this was coming.

Oh well, the team members on 469 are better sports than I would have been.

Oh, c'mon. You've never laughed at a joke about Tiger Woods? Or Blondes?

Please. Most jokes will have one group (or person) as the butt of the joke. Get over it, and get thicker skin.


To 469:
Consider this, These jokes (and all the talk about 'how to beat your robot' and 'making your robot illegal') are because when it comes to the elimination rounds THEY CAN'T BEAT YOU.

You have the most dominant robot (for elims) that I have seen in years. Kudos to your team. And everytime someone wants to make your robot illegal, and everytime someone says 'I think 469 can be beaten this way', remember that NOBODY is talking about their robot ... they are only talking about how to beat your machine. Again Kudos.

[ALTrammell818]

I agree that this was distasteful. However it would have been quit funny to see had they told 469 in advance.

On another note my head mentor told me when I walked into his physics classroom that we were going to states and already had a bus ready to take us. He said that some of the team and mentors had set up the pit the night before but I couldn't be contacted for one reason or another. I was jumping up and down when he said April Fools.

I then threatened to slash his tires .

Turns out we actually we were offered a spot last minute, but they turned it down due to having no time to prepare. Or so I've been told.

[FRC4ME]

I don't see anything wrong with this joke. The whole point of an April Fool is that you make someone really mad or disappointed for a few seconds, then watch their sigh of relief when you tell them April Fools. In this case, 469 got fooled. Now, doing it the other way around - making someone really happy only to extinguish their hopes with April Fools - would be distasteful.

I will agree that cheering in response to the joke was out-of-line - unless, of course, they realized it was a joke and were cheering for the MC's cleverness. Exactly how much cheering was there? Reading these forums gives me the impression that most of the FIRST community supports 469 (as they should). Regardless, the telling of a joke is not wrong because some people might laugh at it the wrong way. We can be disappointed in the reaction to the joke while still finding the joke itself to be funny.

I also love the mockery of the GDC: "The GDC would like to remind teams of the intent of Breakaway..." that's exactly how a team update would begin.

[synth3tk]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Oh, c'mon. You've never laughed at a joke about Tiger Woods? Or Blondes?

Please. Most jokes will have one group (or person) as the butt of the joke. Get over it, and get thicker skin.

^ This. x1000, this.

Trust me, I'd love for our team's robot to be so good that almost the entire FIRST/CD community wants to find a way to stop it. Yes, I think that the MC/volunteers should have talked to 469 first, so they wouldn't feel left out in the dark. But as to this being out-of-line, it's April 1, they've got a really strong robot, and it was down-right funny.

[Sumathi]

Once someone explained to me who 469 was, I got the joke. It is kinda comical. I really want to see them in action, so if anyone has links to watch them please post or message.

[Nigel]

I don't see why questioning a design is not in the spirit of FIRST?

Mayhaps calling someone a cheater is not Graciously Professional, but is it not in the spirit of engineering and all of that to question everything? Am I supposed to accept a bot which is admittedly god-like as just being such and there is no way the team bent the rules? If this becomes the case, a) we aren't human anymore because being suspicious is of human nature, and b) there will be teams which abuse this and bend the rules. Did 469? No, of course not, and I'm not saying they would, but SOMEONE would be tempted if all designs went unchallenged. I'm all for giving 469 kudos for their kick-$@#$@#$@# robot, but I completely understand why people have questioned their design so thoroughly, and in fact, it is a good thing for THEM that people on here have because if you look in the "game breaker bot" thread, you'll find 469's general robot and all of the arguments and rules against it... all of the questioning... this helps those enterprising teams who try it by showing them everything that's going to be thrown at them and helps them plan around it.

Is it gp to cheer when hearing that the "god-bot"'s main strategy was thwarted? well professionals everywhere I know would cheer if their main competitor got the boot... would Apple not cheer if Microsoft was shut down? or vice versa? You mention how hurt you would be if after 6 weeks of work your robot was dq'd or people cheered when they thought it was, etc etc etc... what about if you spent 6 weeks working on a robot and it got eaten and the bones spit out in your matches because of a god-bot? how would you feel if that monster that was about to nom the heck outta your robot got its biggest, scariest fangs removed? you'd be pretty relieved huh? maybe even cheer because your baby for the last 6 weeks had a chance to grow up now? probably yes...

I'm just saying, its expected of human nature and observed in professional settings where people cheer when their main competitor goes under, and the questioning and nitpicking not only keeps everyone honest, but also helps those teams who are doing awesome by showing them all the potential issues with their design

I'm not attempting to bash 469 at all here, their bot absolutely dominates, and they're a great team, as are all the other big names out there, they're big names for a reason... I'm just agreeing with someone (i forget who) earlier with the tougher skin comment.

my $1.50

[FRC4ME]

Originally Posted by Nigel

I don't see why questioning a design is not in the spirit of FIRST?

Mayhaps calling someone a cheater is not Graciously Professional, but is it not in the spirit of engineering and all of that to question everything? Am I supposed to accept a bot which is admittedly god-like as just being such and there is no way the team bent the rules? If this becomes the case, a) we aren't human anymore because being suspicious is of human nature, and b) there will be teams which abuse this and bend the rules. Did 469? No, of course not, and I'm not saying they would, but SOMEONE would be tempted if all designs went unchallenged. I'm all for giving 469 kudos for their kick-$@#$@#$@# robot, but I completely understand why people have questioned their design so thoroughly, and in fact, it is a good thing for THEM that people on here have because if you look in the "game breaker bot" thread, you'll find 469's general robot and all of the arguments and rules against it... all of the questioning... this helps those enterprising teams who try it by showing them everything that's going to be thrown at them and helps them plan around it.

Is it gp to cheer when hearing that the "god-bot"'s main strategy was thwarted? well professionals everywhere I know would cheer if their main competitor got the boot... would Apple not cheer if Microsoft was shut down? or vice versa? You mention how hurt you would be if after 6 weeks of work your robot was dq'd or people cheered when they thought it was, etc etc etc... what about if you spent 6 weeks working on a robot and it got eaten and the bones spit out in your matches because of a god-bot? how would you feel if that monster that was about to nom the heck outta your robot got its biggest, scariest fangs removed? you'd be pretty relieved huh? maybe even cheer because your baby for the last 6 weeks had a chance to grow up now? probably yes...

I'm just saying, its expected of human nature and observed in professional settings where people cheer when their main competitor goes under, and the questioning and nitpicking not only keeps everyone honest, but also helps those teams who are doing awesome by showing them all the potential issues with their design

I'm not attempting to bash 469 at all here, their bot absolutely dominates, and they're a great team, as are all the other big names out there, they're big names for a reason... I'm just agreeing with someone (i forget who) earlier with the tougher skin comment.

my $1.50

The problem is not that people questioned 469's bot and its legality. I doubt many of us didn't immediately think, "are you sure that's legal?" upon hearing about 469's design for the first time.

The problem is with people who either (1) want the rules of the game to be changed after build season to specifically make 469's strategy illegal or (2) consider 469 to be "cheaters" in principle, despite following all of the rules, because they are winning in an unconventional manner.

Having said that, I do not believe very many of the above actually exist.

[Mike Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Oh, c'mon. You've never laughed at a joke about Tiger Woods? Or Blondes?

Please. Most jokes will have one group (or person) as the butt of the joke. Get over it, and get thicker skin.

Tiger woods is in the room...Do you make a joke about his most recent life crisis?

What separates FIRST from a high school sport is that FIRST students never boo, they never play to break another robot, they never cheat, and no one wants to win by a penalty.

This year teams cheer whenever 469 gets a penalty, when they tip, when their is a practical joke that is hurtful to them.

I will be just as happy as anyone else when someone finally legitimately beats them in a clean match where there's no penalties and they aren't tipped. I will never cheer for a penalty nor a destructive style such as intentional tipping, which I have witnessed several times.

469 has HAD a thick skin. But how much do you want to put them through? They are dominating to the point that teams are dropping the standards that separate FIRST students from normal students.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19

Tiger woods is in the room...Do you make a joke about his most recent life crisis?

On April fools day, Yes. As a public figure he's going to get this.

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19

What separates FIRST from a high school sport is that FIRST students never boo, they never play to break another robot, they never cheat, and no one wants to win by a penalty.

FIRSTers are human. I doubt the above is 100% true (but I wish it were).

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19

This year teams cheer whenever 469 gets a penalty, when they tip, when their is a practical joke that is hurtful to them.

and I've seen teams cheer for 469 when they are scoring 26-1 matches. A practical joke is just that, get over it.

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19

I will be just as happy as anyone else when someone finally legitimately beats them in a clean match where there's no penalties and they aren't tipped. I will never cheer for a penalty nor a destructive style such as intentional tipping, which I have witnessed several times.

and I will be happy when they win Einstien. A joke is not destructive play and intentional tipping. I've never talked about destructive play nor tipping in this thread. Please refrain from putting words into my posts and strawman arguments, they are counterproductive and just plain wrong (IE: go back and reread my post).

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19

469 has HAD a thick skin. But how much do you want to put them through? They are dominating to the point that teams are dropping the standards that separate FIRST students from normal students.

469 has had thick skin, and for that I applaud them. It's other people (like your posts) that I telling to get thicker skin. As I said before, 469 is one of the most domanant robots I've seen in the last few years, people will try and figure a way to beat them ... someone will eventually win, but not this year.

[Mike Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

and I will be happy when they win Einstien. A joke is not destructive play and intentional tipping. I've never talked about destructive play nor tipping in this thread. Please refrain from putting words into my posts and strawman arguments, they are counterproductive and just plain wrong (IE: go back and reread my post).

That section was not referring to your post, that section was referring to FIRST in general and actions I've witnessed at competitions. I was simply stating all the crap they have had to put up with this year in addition to that joke. Please refrain from calling legitimate facts "just wrong". It happened.

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

469 has had thick skin, and for that I applaud them. It's other people (like your posts) that I telling to get thicker skin.

I'm sorry for standing up for a team who would receive too much flack if they were to defend themselves. I'm assuming being from NH that you have not personally talked to them about this subject (if I am wrong then I apologize) but it doesn't exactly feel good to know that almost no one wants you to win. It's hurtful when people cheer for 6 weeks of your hard work being deemed illegal. Or for your robot being taken out of commission on the bump as Karibou said. Perhaps not all noise is cheering, but there are cases where it is pretty obvious what people are yelling about.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19

That section was not referring to your post, that section was referring to FIRST in general and actions I've witnessed at competitions. I was simply stating all the crap they have had to put up with this year in addition to that joke. Please refrain from calling legitimate facts "just wrong". It happened.

Your quotes appeared to be a direct response to my posts, and a strawman argument against them.

From what I've seen on these forums, 469 has many followers/wellwishers. It's true that many, here, are trying to figure out how to beat 469 ... but the reason for that is that they are that good. 'nuff said there.

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19

I'm sorry for standing up for a team who would receive too much flack if they were to defend themselves. I'm assuming being from NH that you have not personally talked to them about this subject (if I am wrong then I apologize) but it doesn't exactly feel good to know that almost no one wants you to win. It's hurtful when people cheer for 6 weeks of your hard work being deemed illegal. Or for your robot being taken out of commission on the bump as Karibou said. Perhaps not all noise is cheering, but there are cases where it is pretty obvious what people are yelling about.

It's true that I haven't spoken with them. That being said, I'm a fan of their robot, and their team. They have shown class throughout all of this and deserve every award they are getting. As I said "I'll see them on Einstien".

... and as far as robots being deemed illegal, well we know all about that up here in this neck of the woods (just ask team 190 ... and no one was cheering).

[Karibou]

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19

This year teams cheer whenever 469 gets a penalty, when they tip, when their is a practical joke that is hurtful to them.

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second. Everyone, please remember that when a team wins a match by penalties on the other alliance, they're going to cheer - they won. Whether or not the penalties are on 469 or not, they're going to be cheering. So will all of their supporters, their brother or sister teams, and their friends. When one of the teams (it was a smaller robot - 1023, maybe?) succeeded in keeping 469 parallel to the ground in one of the elimination matches - the closest anyone really got to tipping that robot on a flat plane, because that match proved that 469 CANNOT tip in that fashion - I was one of the ones screaming "OH MY GOSH OH MY GOSH OH MY GOSH" in the stands. The friends that I was sitting with were doing the same - all three of us wondering whether or not 469 would be out, if there were going to be penalties awarded, and what the eventual outcome would be. We weren't cheering for seeing them tipped, we were aghast at everything that was going on, and I know that it's impossible to distinguish things like that from the honest-to-goodness cheers. Just remember that not all noise that comes from the stands is necessarily cheering [:

What I was not a fan of was when 469 was trapped on a bump, and the entire arena cheered - it was very obvious that it was a cheer for 469 being knocked out of commission. There was another cheer when they were freed, but it wasn't nearly as loud (probably from their alliance and a few other teams).