Update #20

[JackG]

The aspect of the joke that nobody has seemed to notice is that it pokes fun at the GDC and the uncertainty surrounding their decision making/ideas for Breakaway. They already made a radical change to the rules regarding seeding, so the plausibility of them making another big "update" to the rules with something like this adds to the humor. (And I feel remarkably stodgy analyzing a joke like this. . .)

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Simple, because EVERY year whatever teams that do well are belittled and insulted because they are successful. Personally I don't want my students getting the impression that being great means you will be picked on and insulted. Every year, lately it has been bashing 217 or 1114 or 67 or [team du jour] All these teams did was do well. Should we really be insulting them for it? I don't CARE how they react, I think by insulting them and hoping FIRST makes rules against them you are celebrating mediocrity and that is WRONG.

Andrew, nobody but you can make you feel insulted. The same goes for every single other person and team. This is an excellent opportunity for you to teach your students about having thick skin and not taking things personally. It's not just FIRST where successful teams take flack; look at how people hate Duke basketball or the New York Yankees. Instead of getting upset over some harmless humor, use this as a learning opportunity.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by JackG

Andrew, nobody but you can make you feel insulted. The same goes for every single other person and team. This is an excellent opportunity for you to teach your students about having thick skin and not taking things personally. It's not just FIRST where successful teams take flack; look at how people hate Duke basketball or the New York Yankees. Instead of getting upset over some harmless humor, use this as a learning opportunity.

When someone cheers because your robot design you spent 6 weeks building and 5 weeks tweaking has been made illegal let me know how you feel. Because that was what was done today.

[pschre]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

When someone cheers because your robot design you spent 6 weeks building and 5 weeks tweaking has been made illegal let me know how you feel. Because that was what was done today.

I think that crowd reaction to the joke is more indicative of the incorrect attitude that Andrew is pointing out, more so than the spirit of the joke itself. While I wasn't there, I wouldn't think that the MC/whoever hatched the April Fool's joke would put it out there publicly with the intent of inciting a mass negative reaction against 469 by people drinking that Haterade. As WWE commentator JBL used to say, borrowing football imagery, "If you don't want T.O. to dance in the end zone, don't let him score." I don't think that a mass cheer in response to that April Fool was an appropriate reaction at all. I would expect that reaction from, say, the aunts and uncles of team members in the bleachers who have a lack of understanding of the process and spirit of building a robot and competing, and who think it must be wrong that little Johnny's robot is getting owned out there.

For most of the last 9 seasons, do my kids look at the consistently rock-solid teams who have more professional engineer mentors than we have total people involved with our team with more than a hint of jealousy? Hell yeah they do. But I try to turn that into motivation for them, rather than permitting 9 years of bitterness to turn into learned helplessness and settling for, if not celebrating, mediocrity.

As far as what Jack said about having a thick skin, I do think that teams who have had rule changes, real non-fooling ones, added in subsequent years pretty apparently in reaction to some ingenious, highly advantageous thing they did, could and should wear it like a badge of honor. The same could be said for those few excellent teams who build a robot that plays the game so commandingly that they inspire haters. But, as you mentioned the Yankees, not everyone, especially high school kids, can be Jeter-like in their ability to withstand if not relish being hated by the opposing fans.

[JackG]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

When someone cheers because your robot design you spent 6 weeks building and 5 weeks tweaking has been made illegal let me know how you feel. Because that was what was done today.

You know how I'd feel about those people cheering? "What a bunch of jerks." You how I'd react if someone rigged a bucket of water to dump on me as an April Fools prank? "What a jerk." In either case, the best idea is to shrug it off. Having thick skin does not mean being insulted by one thing but not another. A big part of life is learning to roll with the punches (i.e. all of them), not roll with the little ones and get hurt by the big ones. Sure, the cheering when your robot has been declared illegal can be quite hurtful, but how you react to it is up to you. What an opportunity for maturity growth and building character!

Those individuals who cheered at 469's apparent misfortune were clearly acting in a distasteful fashion far removed from any semblance of gracious professionalism. But that does not mean we cannot make these kind of jokes. We cannot pussyfoot around around potentially sensitive topics or jokes because a few bad apples might sour the fun. FIRST is about changing the culture, for crying out loud! We can never completely eliminate those who belittle us and drag us down, but we can build ourselves up to deal with them.

pschre is absolutely right when he brought up that high schoolers are not exactly quite prepared to deal with derision and hate. But then again, we're in a competition where we have high schoolers, not professional engineers, build and program robots! We're asking a lot out of the students technically, and they grow and learn because of it. Simultaneously when we're asking students to live up to the standards of gracious professionalism, is it too much to ask them to grow and develop in other ways?

tl;dr version: Why silence the rude ones and naysayers when you could have the students learn to deal with them?

[peter1626]

This little april fools joke goes against every thing FIRST is about, gracious professionalism. Not only was the MC un-gp but everyone in the stands who cheered only because they knew that 469 was now illegal.

[quinxorin]

Personally, when I heard it, I didn't know to think whether it was good or bad.

Also, my team holds 469 in high regard; We don't insult you guys. I still thought the joke was funny though. I hadn't been April Fooled yet.

[Adam Freeman]

I agree with Andrew. When an April fool's joke is played, at the expense of a team with a controversial robot design, and the crowd is cheering that they have been made illegal....its not a funny joke.

If I had created "Update 20", I would let 469 know about it before hand, and played the joke for the rest of the competition.

Talking with 469 on the field, they had no idea this was coming.

Oh well, the team members on 469 are better sports than I would have been.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Adam Freeman

I agree with Andrew. When an April fool's joke is played, at the expense of a team with a controversial robot design, and the crowd is cheering that they have been made illegal....its not a funny joke.

If I had created "Update 20", I would let 469 know about it before hand, and played the joke for the rest of the competition.

Talking with 469 on the field, they had no idea this was coming.

Oh well, the team members on 469 are better sports than I would have been.

Oh, c'mon. You've never laughed at a joke about Tiger Woods? Or Blondes?

Please. Most jokes will have one group (or person) as the butt of the joke. Get over it, and get thicker skin.


To 469:
Consider this, These jokes (and all the talk about 'how to beat your robot' and 'making your robot illegal') are because when it comes to the elimination rounds THEY CAN'T BEAT YOU.

You have the most dominant robot (for elims) that I have seen in years. Kudos to your team. And everytime someone wants to make your robot illegal, and everytime someone says 'I think 469 can be beaten this way', remember that NOBODY is talking about their robot ... they are only talking about how to beat your machine. Again Kudos.

[ALTrammell818]

I agree that this was distasteful. However it would have been quit funny to see had they told 469 in advance.

On another note my head mentor told me when I walked into his physics classroom that we were going to states and already had a bus ready to take us. He said that some of the team and mentors had set up the pit the night before but I couldn't be contacted for one reason or another. I was jumping up and down when he said April Fools.

I then threatened to slash his tires .

Turns out we actually we were offered a spot last minute, but they turned it down due to having no time to prepare. Or so I've been told.

[FRC4ME]

I don't see anything wrong with this joke. The whole point of an April Fool is that you make someone really mad or disappointed for a few seconds, then watch their sigh of relief when you tell them April Fools. In this case, 469 got fooled. Now, doing it the other way around - making someone really happy only to extinguish their hopes with April Fools - would be distasteful.

I will agree that cheering in response to the joke was out-of-line - unless, of course, they realized it was a joke and were cheering for the MC's cleverness. Exactly how much cheering was there? Reading these forums gives me the impression that most of the FIRST community supports 469 (as they should). Regardless, the telling of a joke is not wrong because some people might laugh at it the wrong way. We can be disappointed in the reaction to the joke while still finding the joke itself to be funny.

I also love the mockery of the GDC: "The GDC would like to remind teams of the intent of Breakaway..." that's exactly how a team update would begin.

[synth3tk]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Oh, c'mon. You've never laughed at a joke about Tiger Woods? Or Blondes?

Please. Most jokes will have one group (or person) as the butt of the joke. Get over it, and get thicker skin.

^ This. x1000, this.

Trust me, I'd love for our team's robot to be so good that almost the entire FIRST/CD community wants to find a way to stop it. Yes, I think that the MC/volunteers should have talked to 469 first, so they wouldn't feel left out in the dark. But as to this being out-of-line, it's April 1, they've got a really strong robot, and it was down-right funny.

[Sumathi]

Once someone explained to me who 469 was, I got the joke. It is kinda comical. I really want to see them in action, so if anyone has links to watch them please post or message.

[Nigel]

I don't see why questioning a design is not in the spirit of FIRST?

Mayhaps calling someone a cheater is not Graciously Professional, but is it not in the spirit of engineering and all of that to question everything? Am I supposed to accept a bot which is admittedly god-like as just being such and there is no way the team bent the rules? If this becomes the case, a) we aren't human anymore because being suspicious is of human nature, and b) there will be teams which abuse this and bend the rules. Did 469? No, of course not, and I'm not saying they would, but SOMEONE would be tempted if all designs went unchallenged. I'm all for giving 469 kudos for their kick-$@#$@#$@# robot, but I completely understand why people have questioned their design so thoroughly, and in fact, it is a good thing for THEM that people on here have because if you look in the "game breaker bot" thread, you'll find 469's general robot and all of the arguments and rules against it... all of the questioning... this helps those enterprising teams who try it by showing them everything that's going to be thrown at them and helps them plan around it.

Is it gp to cheer when hearing that the "god-bot"'s main strategy was thwarted? well professionals everywhere I know would cheer if their main competitor got the boot... would Apple not cheer if Microsoft was shut down? or vice versa? You mention how hurt you would be if after 6 weeks of work your robot was dq'd or people cheered when they thought it was, etc etc etc... what about if you spent 6 weeks working on a robot and it got eaten and the bones spit out in your matches because of a god-bot? how would you feel if that monster that was about to nom the heck outta your robot got its biggest, scariest fangs removed? you'd be pretty relieved huh? maybe even cheer because your baby for the last 6 weeks had a chance to grow up now? probably yes...

I'm just saying, its expected of human nature and observed in professional settings where people cheer when their main competitor goes under, and the questioning and nitpicking not only keeps everyone honest, but also helps those teams who are doing awesome by showing them all the potential issues with their design

I'm not attempting to bash 469 at all here, their bot absolutely dominates, and they're a great team, as are all the other big names out there, they're big names for a reason... I'm just agreeing with someone (i forget who) earlier with the tougher skin comment.

my $1.50

[FRC4ME]

Originally Posted by Nigel

I don't see why questioning a design is not in the spirit of FIRST?

Mayhaps calling someone a cheater is not Graciously Professional, but is it not in the spirit of engineering and all of that to question everything? Am I supposed to accept a bot which is admittedly god-like as just being such and there is no way the team bent the rules? If this becomes the case, a) we aren't human anymore because being suspicious is of human nature, and b) there will be teams which abuse this and bend the rules. Did 469? No, of course not, and I'm not saying they would, but SOMEONE would be tempted if all designs went unchallenged. I'm all for giving 469 kudos for their kick-$@#$@#$@# robot, but I completely understand why people have questioned their design so thoroughly, and in fact, it is a good thing for THEM that people on here have because if you look in the "game breaker bot" thread, you'll find 469's general robot and all of the arguments and rules against it... all of the questioning... this helps those enterprising teams who try it by showing them everything that's going to be thrown at them and helps them plan around it.

Is it gp to cheer when hearing that the "god-bot"'s main strategy was thwarted? well professionals everywhere I know would cheer if their main competitor got the boot... would Apple not cheer if Microsoft was shut down? or vice versa? You mention how hurt you would be if after 6 weeks of work your robot was dq'd or people cheered when they thought it was, etc etc etc... what about if you spent 6 weeks working on a robot and it got eaten and the bones spit out in your matches because of a god-bot? how would you feel if that monster that was about to nom the heck outta your robot got its biggest, scariest fangs removed? you'd be pretty relieved huh? maybe even cheer because your baby for the last 6 weeks had a chance to grow up now? probably yes...

I'm just saying, its expected of human nature and observed in professional settings where people cheer when their main competitor goes under, and the questioning and nitpicking not only keeps everyone honest, but also helps those teams who are doing awesome by showing them all the potential issues with their design

I'm not attempting to bash 469 at all here, their bot absolutely dominates, and they're a great team, as are all the other big names out there, they're big names for a reason... I'm just agreeing with someone (i forget who) earlier with the tougher skin comment.

my $1.50

The problem is not that people questioned 469's bot and its legality. I doubt many of us didn't immediately think, "are you sure that's legal?" upon hearing about 469's design for the first time.

The problem is with people who either (1) want the rules of the game to be changed after build season to specifically make 469's strategy illegal or (2) consider 469 to be "cheaters" in principle, despite following all of the rules, because they are winning in an unconventional manner.

Having said that, I do not believe very many of the above actually exist.

[Mike Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Oh, c'mon. You've never laughed at a joke about Tiger Woods? Or Blondes?

Please. Most jokes will have one group (or person) as the butt of the joke. Get over it, and get thicker skin.

Tiger woods is in the room...Do you make a joke about his most recent life crisis?

What separates FIRST from a high school sport is that FIRST students never boo, they never play to break another robot, they never cheat, and no one wants to win by a penalty.

This year teams cheer whenever 469 gets a penalty, when they tip, when their is a practical joke that is hurtful to them.

I will be just as happy as anyone else when someone finally legitimately beats them in a clean match where there's no penalties and they aren't tipped. I will never cheer for a penalty nor a destructive style such as intentional tipping, which I have witnessed several times.

469 has HAD a thick skin. But how much do you want to put them through? They are dominating to the point that teams are dropping the standards that separate FIRST students from normal students.